The U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) has just released the entire transcript from interviews with Ghislaine Maxwell regarding Jeffrey Epstein.
The interviews, held late last month, were led by Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche.
In the interest of transparency, @TheJusticeDept is releasing the complete transcript and audio of my proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The transcript and audio are linked below.https://t.co/TQW5migemm
— Todd Blanche (@DAGToddBlanche) August 22, 2025
The following is the full, unedited transcript:
INTERVIEW OF: GHISLAINE MAXWELL
DATE: July 24, 2025
APPEARANCES:
For the United States: Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney GeneralDiego Pestana, Acting Associate DeputyAttorney GeneralSpencer Horn, FBI Special AgentMark Beard, Deputy U.S. Marshal
For Ghislaine Maxwell: David MarkusLeah SaffianMelissa Madrigal
I N T E R V I E W
***
TODD BLANCHE: I am going to ask everybody
to put their name on the record here.
SPENCER HORN: Good morning. My name is
Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Spencer Horn of FBI, New York. Today we’re doing a proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The date is July 24th and the time is :12 a.m. This interview is being recorded.
TODD BLANCHE: And my name is Todd
Blanche. I’m the Deputy Attorney General. And before we start formally asking questions of Ms. Maxwell, I’m going to put on the record everybody that’s in this room, in addition to me, starting with you, Diego.
DIEGO PESTANA: Diego Pestana, Associate
Deputy Attorney General.
TODD BLANCHE: And then you heard from
Special Agent in Charge Horn. Mark Beard from the United States Marshal Service is here as well. And then David.
DAVID MARKUS: Yes. This is David Oscar
Markus, and I’m counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
LEAH SAFFIAN: My name is Leah Saffian and
I’m counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
MELISSA MADRIGAL: My name is
Melissa Madrigal and I’m counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I’m — I’m
Ghislaine Maxwell.
TODD BLANCHE: Good morning, Ms. Maxwell.
How are you?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Good morning,
Mr. Blanche.
TODD BLANCHE: Good. Okay. So before we started recording, we met for a few minutes. I introduced myself and we — we’ve chatted and now I’ve told you that we were going on the record. And before we start asking questions, I know that you’ve been given, by your lawyer, a copy of what’s called a proffer agreement. And I just want to spend two minutes making sure that you understand what — what governs our conversation today. The most important part of this agreement is that this isn’t a cooperation agreement, meaning that by you meeting with us today, we’re really just meeting, I’m not promising to do anything. I’m not promising to ask Judge Nathan or any of the judges that’s been assigned to your case to do anything. It — we’re just talking. And so that’s the most important — important part of — of this agreement. However, almost as important is the fact that what this agreement does for you is it gives you protection. So what it means is that the government cannot use what you say today against you, with some exceptions, which we’ll talk about in a minute. But whatever you talk about today, you have what’s called immunity. So that means that the words that you say today, we cannot use against you in a case in chief, if we were ever to bring one. Okay?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you.
TODD BLANCHE: All right. There’s exceptions to that. The most meaningful one of which is that, if you say something today that’s not true, that’s a lie, we can bring a prosecution against you for what’s called false statements. So I’m a federal officer, I have several officers here. The FBI is here. And if — if you lie to someone that’s — like me or like Special Agent Horn, it’s a crime. So you have to be truthful. The other exception to this, that doesn’t necessarily apply directly to you, but if there ever was a retrial in your case, or if there ever was a — a criminal case — a future criminal case against you, and your lawyer or you said something different or took a position that’s different than what you say today, we can then cross examine you or a witness, based upon what you say today. So it’s a little bit nuanced, meaning I can’t use what you say against you in our case in chief. However, if you were to testify or if your lawyer called a witness to testify, and they said something that is totally different than what you say today, we could then cross examine you or the witness and say, hey, do you remember when we met with Ms. Wax — when we met with Ms. Maxwell back in July of 2025? She told us and then say what she said. Okay?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I understand.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Other than that, you — I — I know you didn’t have a lot of time this morning to meet with — with — with Mr. Markus, but did — did you have a chance to go over this briefly with him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So I’ve
already signed it, as has Special Agent Horn —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: — and Mr. Markus signed it
as well. So you got a pen, please sign it —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right here?
TODD BLANCHE: — right where it says
“client.” Yes. And I will provide a copy of this to — to your lawyer so you guys have it.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay, thank you.
So Ms. Maxwell, about a week and a half ago or two weeks ago —
SPENCER HORN: Can you see the light blinking on there? On the Sony? Yeah, there it is.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. We’re just confirming that it works and it does. Ms. Maxwell, I guess about a week and a half or two weeks ago, Mr. Markus reached out to me and said that — that you wanted to speak with somebody from the government about, not only your case, but about everything that’s been in the media and that’s been publicized about Mr. Epstein in your case.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s —
TODD BLANCHE: Did he —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s true and I did speak to him and I did ask him if — oh, and did tell him that I would be very keen to talk to anyone, because no one from the government, at any time, ever in the — since the inception of the case, so dating back to the early 2000s, has ever spoken to me, and indeed, I believe ever reached out to me at any time to even speak to me. And that includes up to when I was indicted and prosecuted. I believe that — or I understand, I should say, rather, that my attorneys, at the time, did tell the government that I wanted to speak to them, because I was very keen to meet with anyone, so that I could tell or have them ask me any question. I’ve never had any problem to — to speak to anybody. And I offered myself and I kept asking, if they would meet with me, so I could talk to them and for whatever reason —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — that was not happening.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I have questions that I want to ask you, but I’m not — if there’s a path that — a question that I’m not asking, that you think should be asked, I — I invite you to volunteer. Same thing goes to your lawyers. Just to start a little bit very briefly, can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein. I know that goes back a while. And just very generally talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein, from the time you met him all the way up until — until his death.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Mr. Epstein in. My — I had — I had never heard of him or met him before. And no one in my family had ever either. My father never knew him. And I’ll explain why that is the case. I met —
TODD BLANCHE: Where did you — where — where did you meet him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had a girlfriend who — I — I was — yeah. I had moved to America, briefly, in — well, I’d moved to America in 1990.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — well “moved,” that’s a big word. I’d come to visit America in . I had been running my own company up until that time, which was a company called Maxwell’s Corporate Gifts. And I had also been working for my father at the time. I had multiple jobs with him. I was — in 1990 I was working with a — a new company of his, a new — a new newspaper that he was launching, called The European. And I was in charge of launching a magazine to go with the — The European. And I was traveling at that time from England to America, because my father was looking to — well, he’d also bought McMillan the — the publishing house. And he had purchased the New York Daily News. And it’s truth that my father always wanted me to come back, full time and work for him, but that’s a much longer story I don’t think we need to go into at this time. So — but I was always working with him. There was no escaping it were — as it were to — to work for him. So in 1990, I had come over to New York, to help look at some of that. He was having some advertising issues with the New York Daily News. And in fact, I met — I may have met Donald Trump at that time, because my father was friendly with him and liked him very much. And I think, should be said that he also very much liked Ivana, because she was also from Czechoslovakia where my dad was from. So I don’t — I don’t remember if I did meet him or not in 1990 with my dad, but I knew that that’s how I knew about, — about Mr. Trump.
TODD BLANCHE: And this was before you met —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: This was before I met Mr. Epstein.
TODD BLANCHE: — Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I was already going backwards and forwards in America. And then in April of 1991, I came to New York, but, I can’t remember for what reason — what business reason, but there was a business reason — something to do with my dad at that time. And a girlfriend of mine who — an American, told me I — I — I had broken up with my long — I’d been engaged, getting my — the very long-term boyfriend and we’d broken up. And she said, I’ve got — you know, as your girlfriends do, I’ve got a guy for you to meet. And I was like, who is it? And she goes, it’s — he’s been dating my sister. You’ll love him. He’s looking for a wife. I’m edging towards 30. I don’t need to tell you guys, That’s a very important moment for a girl to, like, think about important things. And sure, I’d be happy to meet him. And so sometime in 1991 now. We are in , I met him at his offices in — on Madison Garden. And I think the most memorable thing I can think about that is he was wearing a tie, which he didn’t often do. It had a giant, seemed like a ketchup stain on it. So I was like, wow, okay. And that was how we met.
TODD BLANCHE: Was your meeting at his office for you to meet him just personally or were you — were you there for —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was just —
TODD BLANCHE: — work related reasons?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I — I knew nothing about him.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — he just invited me to come and have tea, and I was like tea, that’s English. Okay. But what was unusual, was in his offices. So I went to his offices and we met. And I found him very engaging and that was that.
TODD BLANCHE: So — okay. So that’s how you meet him. So we — and again, I don’t want to spend a lot of time, you know, on — on this particular issue, but what happened with your relationship over the years, from the time you meet him in 1991, up until the time he — he passed away?
DAVID MARKUS: Just give the highlights.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay, the highlights.
So I — I was looking for real estate for my dad to buy some, and Epstein told me that he was also looking to move from his apartment and would I help him? And I — I said, sure I’m looking already so I could look for him. So that’s how it started. And then, in 1991, my father passed away and I returned to New York after that, originally to come back and help with the family businesses, which was McMillan. And then the debacle of my father’s passing hit the family. And — and we lost all our businesses and my family thought that it would be best if I stayed in America, because of the intensity of the press and the drama surrounding my father’s death in England So I stayed and Epstein said, well, you can keep helping me. You can help me find a house and we can decorate the house. And it gave me something to do.
TODD BLANCHE: Were you in a romantic relationship with him at this point or just friends?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, just friends.
TODD BLANCHE: And while we’re just — with respect to your father, there have been multiple questions about whether he worked for any intelligence agency. Do you have any knowledge about that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think — well certainly my father had a background in intelligence during — because he was — I believe he did in the second World War. He was an intelli- — a British intelligence officer. I think that, my sort of belief is that once you’ve been an intelligence officer, you’re kind of — always; it doesn’t mean that you’re formally employed. So I don’t think my dad in any formal sense was, you know, employed by the — any agency. But when you are a very significant businessman and politician, as my father was, you meet with people over time and you, I guess trade business or ideas. I think if — if that would fall under that definition, that’s how I would give it. Now he certainly, I have no formal knowledge of anything specifically that he did in that thing, but if you’re asking me if I thought that he did help people, the answer would be yes, I did.
TODD BLANCHE: Did your father and Mr. Epstein have a business relationship over the years? I know we’re maybe jumping around a little bit.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They never met. So —
TODD BLANCHE: As far as you know, they never even met?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I — I–
TODD BLANCHE: — or you know they never met?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I know they never met.
TODD BLANCHE: Well, how do you know they never met?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They — just categorically know they never met. Well, because after, in 1991, before my father died, he asked me if I’d met anybody interesting or whatever, you know, because I was still trying not to be sucked back into the family business. And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein. And the reason why I shared that I’d met Mr. Epstein, because I believed, at that time, that Epstein worked for Bear Stearns. And Bear Stearns was one of our banks. And I knew that my father was friendly with both Jimmy Cayne and with Ace Greenberg. So my dad came — was actually in New York, I think. If I remem- — I may — I don’t think I had this conversation on the phone, but I — I honestly we’re talking 30 years ago, so I’m not sure. But if I — I maybe I told him this verbatim, because it happened — I know that what my dad did, whether I saw it or whether I — he did it and told me later I — that I don’t remember. But he called both Jimmy Cayne and Ace Greenberg to ask if — what sort of guy he was and was he even allowed to — because (indiscernible) so . . .
TODD BLANCHE: So they never — they never met.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He didn’t even know who he was.
TODD BLANCHE: But they had — they — they knew some of the same people, it sounds like, or certainly the Bear Stearns connection was something that — that you — that you knew that they had.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Well, he never had a connection with Epstein. He had a connection with the bank. I mean, Epstein, I’d never heard of him or knew of him before. And I certainly — if my dad had known him, right, when I said, this is who he was, he didn’t know who he was.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So he rang Ace and he rang Jimmy, to ask if it was okay that I even knew him. And I just want to explain, briefly why my father would even do such a thing. I’ve had some — some interesting things that have happened in my life. And one of them was to be found on an IRA kidnap and murder list. And so after that happened — well, there were other related — I’m not going to bore you with all the horrible things in that vein, but I — if you want the details, of course I can. But after that happened, my father wanted to put a lot of protection on me, obviously. And I declined on the grounds that that would be a very life-restricting event. You are all in law enforcement, I know you understand this. And so he had told me that, you know, I would be taking my life in my own hands and then whatever. And so I think after that event and several others, where I had stalkers and all that thing that one has, he was always quite protective of me. And so if I met somebody, he would try and verify that they weren’t going to do anything hideous. And so in case he thought it was weird, that he would call Jimmy and — and Ace — it might — you know, you may think it is but in my — from my perspective, he was just — because he was concerned, I was in America alone and he had an opportunity to verify who this person was. And so I don’t know if I was in the room with him, I don’t recall. But I know that at some point my father told me he’s fine. You can see him.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He’s safe.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, okay.
TODD BLANCHE: So we might come back and
touch a little bit more on that at some point, but —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
TODD BLANCHE: — I went down a rabbit hole for a minute.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s all right. I just wanted to —
TODD BLANCHE: No, that’s helpful.
Thank you. So — okay. So you’re — you’re now in the ’90s and you’re friends with Mr. Epstein. Your house — decorating the house or the apartment. What — what happens with your relationship? Again, I know we’re talking about a -year time period or whatever, but to the extent you can kind of, at a very high level, talk about it.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Listen, I think just full disclosure is the best way to go at this point.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in 1992, I slept with him one time and I was like, whoa, that’s it. We’re going to be dating, because that’s how I thought. And — and I kind of thought of myself in that moment. Like, because you, I felt if you slept with someone, that you were then dating them.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s the world I came from. But that really was — well, that’s how I thought. And — but we didn’t sleep together again for, I don’t know, really a significant period of time. And when I say —
TODD BLANCHE: Like years or?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know if it was a year. I don’t — it feels that feels long, but maybe nine months, I mean, a long time.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I just want to go back to — I had found a house for him to rent in New York, because he had asked me — I had been looking at one for my father, and I found one, which was a former Iranian embassy, I think it was. I think it belonged to the Iranians, or the Iraqis or someone.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I didn’t know that he had any money. It was like, I want to say it was $12,000 a month, which to me seemed like a fortune. And I said to myself, I found this house, but I don’t think you can afford it. He was like, that’s ridiculous. Of course I can afford, and he rented it. And that house came with — it was a State Department house, because it was — I think that was under sequestration or whatever it was. And I — I put it back together, but there were certain rules, you couldn’t paint, because it had to go back and he gave it back to the country then. So he had this house and I had moved into a 10 foot by 10 foot apartment, because all of our stuff had been either lost or frozen or — or whatever. So he became, in this moment, my life line, really, because I was — everything was –felt very similar to this moment, if that makes sense. Anyway, so but I had no key to his house. I had no free access to his house. And in the entire time that he lived there, which was I believe until, the beginning of 1996, I never slept a single night in that house. Never ever. Not one.
TODD BLANCHE: But you — so you — you — you said a minute ago that the — that you had slept with him on one occasion, and at the time you remember thinking, you know, that this meant you were in a relationship, but then it didn’t — you really were not in that type of relationship.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I thought —
TODD BLANCHE: Did that change over — between ’91 and ’92 or whatever and — and — and years forward?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I did travel with him a lot.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I would go to his houses in Palm Beach. He only had that house actually in — no, that’s not true. He had the house in Palm Beach and he had a house in Ohio.
TODD BLANCHE: In where?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Ohio.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he had the house in Ohio because of his business relationship with Mr. Wexner. And he had a — and I had to go and decorate and put that house together. When we traveled together, we stayed in the same bed, but not in — but I didn’t —
TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. It’s okay, talk.
So you — you stayed — so when you would travel with him to his houses in Palm Beach, Ohio, or even just traveling, if — if — if it was just traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed. So sleep in the same bed with him.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Epstein told me that he had a heart condition.
DAVID MARKUS: A what?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Heart condition.
DAVID MARKUS: Heart condition.
TODD BLANCHE: A heart condition. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Which meant that he didn’t have intercourse a lot, which suited me fine, because I actually do have a medical condition, which precludes me having a lot of intercourse.
TODD BLANCHE: So what — what was your understanding of his heart condition and why that prevented him from having intercourse regularly?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know. I mean, he liked other forms of sexual activities.
TODD BLANCHE: Well, let’s come back.
We’re going to obviously spend some time — a lot of time on the actual conduct he was accused of. So we’ll —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: — we’ll — we’ll come back to that. So pick up where you — where you were talking about you traveling around with him, he rented the New York, former Iranian House —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Iranian, there you go. Yeah.
TODD BLANCHE: — until around ’96. At that time, you — I believe you said that he was basically your life, like you were with him pretty regularly.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I — no.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I never was with him regularly.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is one of those misnomers.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, at the beginning I did see more of him, but I worked in his office. So I would go to the office and I would see him, and I would count in my head when I would see him. I would count that I would — that would be a day that I would see him. But I didn’t — I never, ever stayed with him. I believe certainly until ’93 or ’94, what I didn’t know was that I think he was still with his actual girlfriend who was Eva Andersson, who became Eva Dubin. They had been together, my understanding, I think about 10 years. I’m not sure, but that’s what I think, 10 years. And I had understood from my girlfriend initially, that they weren’t together and Epstein himself had told me that they were not together. But I don’t — I don’t think that was true. In fact, I know it’s not true. So they were still together, up until, I think ’94, when at some point, in that period of time, Eva met Glenn Dubin and they got married, I think in ’94. I don’t remember when they got married, but her, she was his best friend and his everything, he told me that he always wished that he had married her and had a child with her. And I know that they — she was family for him for his whole life. And I think even — I’m not sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is true or not. When he came from — back from Paris and you arrested him, I don’t know if Eva was on the plane. Now, I think that either I read it in the — in the discovery that I received, or I saw it somewhere. But even if she wasn’t on the plane, there must have been some email communication where she was in Paris at the same time and going to fly back. One or the other, I don’t know which one is the correct version of that. But so they were still obviously very close and remained throughout the time. In fact, he — he was– still saw her a lot. And so I also know now, which I didn’t know at the time, was that he saw lots of other women. And I know that now, because I can see — I can see it from the flight logs and I know it now because I can see from the emails.
TODD BLANCHE: So, you know from the case —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, not from —
TODD BLANCHE: — that what happened.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I didn’t know —
TODD BLANCHE: You didn’t know that along the way.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I contemporaneously, I absolutely did not know.
TODD BLANCHE: So, okay — so just — and we’re going to spend time on everything you’re talking about, but just to kind of close out the big picture of your relationship. So we’re now in the late ’90s, continue on with, again, staying high level to the extent you can, about your relationship with him.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So after — so my responsibilities increased with each acquisition that he had and each new project. So I believe the first thing that he purchased after was the ranch in New Mexico.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And so what he had tasked me with up until that, and I think that was purchased in ’94, if I’m right. So he had tasked me, one of the things that we did was visit, in my mind, I say every state, but it wouldn’t have been every state, but many states, to go look at real estate property. And so I know we went to Montana. I know we went to Utah and it was — it was to go look at real estate. It was fun, to be honest. And then I arranged for us to go to New Mexico and he just loved New Mexico. And then I don’t remember how the ranch happened. I don’t remember that now, it’s lost. And then he ended up buying the ranch. And I think, if I’m right, it came from — well, the Kings who may have been the governor, I — you know, bought the ranch. And then I had to deal with that. Dealing with that was the extent of it. The way that I thought of myself, or the way that I think is the best way to explain how I view my role, was as a general manager. Because each property, to me was like a — a hotel. So the ranch was very challenging, because not only that, but it had BLM land, so to help maintain your BLM, you have to have cattle and I love animals. And so the first thing, horses. And so I wanted it, if you’re going to have a ranch, I like authenticity. And so I don’t think you should have a ranch if you’re not going to have the things that make it special.
TODD BLANCHE: So were you — were you paid by him along the way —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I —
TODD BLANCHE: — during this time?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I became — I became salaried at some point.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — I — my memory is that I got paid $25,000 a year to begin with. That’s my memory. I may be wrong. And then with each — as it became obvious, because I kept thinking I was going to go home; home being England. And — but it —
TODD BLANCHE: Did you — and financially, you were not relying on him, the — the $25,000 or whatever amount you were paid, were you relying on that money to live and his generosity to live or did you have your own — your own money.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So there’s a —
TODD BLANCHE: And again, I — I want to just make sure we’re talking about that. Like keeping it between like the late ’90s, you know, maybe, I guess into a little of the 2000s.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just want to hit something on the head right now. There’s a tremendous amount of reporting that said that I had a —
LEAH SAFFIAN: A trust fund.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. A trust fund. I have never had a trust fund, at any time.
DAVID MARKUS: So how did you live, did you live with — with — I mean, $25,000 is not enough to live on.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. So I had — during this period of time, the secret — secret, the Serious Fraud Squad had come to see me, in relation to my father’s passing, and to establish whether I had been involved in any way with his business or with any shenanigans. I think — I’ve told this story many times, so I don’t know if it’s now somewhat apocryphal, but I’ll tell you what it — my memory is. So I received a letter from them that said about my business, and my memory may be apocryphal, there was a PS that said (unintelligible), I had nothing. There was no — I was never involved in any of his business, whatever, so I was free.
TODD BLANCHE: And were you — so, but your — you know, obviously your — your father and your family had a lot of businesses. Did — is it because the money, whatever money or whatever equity was in the businesses, just stayed with your other family members?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, there was no money. So my father was never attached to money. He was born a peasant, a real one. Dirt floor, no shoes, no clothes — some clothes, but not, you know, sorry, I don’t mean to say — nothing. And he never — he was never into that. I mean, there were things that he had his extravagances, he loved his boat and his plane. So obviously you need money for that. But there was no, nothing else. And there was not a single penny that came to any of us, at any time, ever.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So — so when you are talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the ’90s, you — you’re — you’re not — you — you’re very different financially. You — you’re very different financially positioned than he is —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely.
TODD BLANCHE: — meaning he’s giving you money, he’s paying for your — when you fly, he — I assume pays for your flights.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay. So you — you — I interrupted you when you were saying how you were functioning as a general manager. You helped with the New Mexico ranch. So did — did your role with him continue like that for many years or for how long?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I continued — in — well, in — by 1999, our relationship had foundered. In —
TODD BLANCHE: Why?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — well, two reasons: We were never sleeping together again. So we stopped having sexual relations in 1999. Not full sex. Sorry, just to be clear. Didn’t mean that we didn’t still share a bed bedroom sometimes or whatever. He had another girlfriend.
TODD BLANCHE: He had what?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Other girlfriends. I definitively knew that it was over after 9/11, actually, because we were both in New York and I don’t know, were you in New York on 9/11? I mean, /11 … And it was a scary time if you were in New York. You didn’t know, I didn’t know, nobody knew what was going on. And he was in 71st Street and I was in 65th Street, my house. And he wouldn’t see me at all. Asked me, his mum, who I’m very close to, who’s in hospital at Lennox Hill, just asked me to look after her. And then I knew, as anyone did at that time, if you’re not going to be there for someone in 9/11, you’re never going to be there. So for me, that was the line’s end. And he had another English girlfriend actually, from 2000.
TODD BLANCHE: Are you, though, still on his — are you still being paid by him at this point?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So — so go ahead.
So what — what — at that point, when you say you realized kind of it was over?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I mean, I’m talking about the — the — I had had, there was a — I had wanted to get married and have children. And Epstein had encouraged me to believe that that would — I don’t know about the — certainly by the mid late ’90s, I knew the marriage part was never going to happen. I had believed that maybe in ’96, ’97, ’98 maybe, but then I realized it wasn’t that. But I did think that we might have a child, which is what I had really wanted. And I realized —
TODD BLANCHE: So — so — okay. So what happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your relationship with him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So —
TODD BLANCHE: Give or take, 2001.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we stopped having physicality. I mean, that doesn’t mean we weren’t friends. I certainly did stay, sometimes, in his room. I mean, friends with benefits, if you will, just not sex. Sorry. And I started dating.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I met someone that I fell very much in love with in 2003. His name was Ted Waitt. Ted Waitt, you may know as the founder of Gateway, the computers. And we had an amazing relationship that ended in — went on until 2010, I think. And I was with Ted from that time.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you meet him through Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Well, indirectly, I suppose you could say so. No, they’d never met. I was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn’t — I was with President Clinton. President Clinton was my friend, not Epstein’s friend. And Epstein had flown him and there was a dinner and Ted came to the dinner. So I guess, indirectly, through Mr. Epstein, because it was with his plane, but I’d have been there anyway without him. I had — was not the —
DAVID MARKUS: Was Epstein on the plane when you guys flew?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: On that trip, yes.
Well, yes. They — that, yes.
TODD BLANCHE: So when you say the — the dinner was — was where?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Hong Kong.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And so the — and you had flown over with — so who was on the plane for that trip? I don’t mean everybody. When you said, so Mr. Epstein was on the plane?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: You were on the plane?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Who else, that you can remember? I’m not, you know, you only remember what you remember.
DAVID MARKUS: Was President Clinton on the plane?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Clinton. He would’ve — he would’ve had his guy, Doug Vance, maybe Jason Cooper, maybe the two.
TODD BLANCHE: And you — and so why — so — so how do you meet — so — so why did you say that’s when you met him and that you met him through Clinton?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, it was a — I don’t think Ted would’ve been there, had it not been a — it was a President Clinton dinner and Ted came to be with President Clinton —
TODD BLANCHE: I see.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not to be with Mr. Epstein. Does that make sense?
TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s why I say that.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you’re — you’re, so in the time that you’re dating, that you’re with him to 2009, are you still working for Mr. Epstein during that time?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So his — so it’d be true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard, he tried very hard to — to keep me to working for him, because this is a complex operator. I’m not talking about anything untoward, just the sheer size of the projects. I’m talking the construction projects, the houses, the staff. It’s a — it’s a really significant job. And I ran all the properties, the staff in the properties, the management of the properties that — and all the construction. And we’re talking tens of millions of dollars for the island alone. I can’t remember what the budget was for the construction on any given year, it’s gone. But it — it was — these are very significant projects. And so that was what I did. And I managed the budgets. Well, not, I didn’t manage the budgets, I oversaw the budgets. So I would just make sure that if you said you bought an air conditioning part, I saw an air conditioning part and I could call the island manager. Did you receive the Carrier, whatever, you know.
TODD BLANCHE: When did Mr. Epstein purchase the island?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say ’96 or
’97, something like that.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So we’re going to come back and spend more time on the money with — with respect to Mr. Epstein and — and his wealth. But just so we can finish this, so in , you end your relationship with Ted.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2009, 2010.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can’t remember if it was ’10.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So in that time period, what happens next with — as far as your relationship with Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t have one with him.
TODD BLANCHE: You don’t have one with him, like you don’t see him or it’s just a different relationship?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did see — I maybe saw him once or twice, maybe even three times. I certainly went to his house once, for sure, maybe twice. But I was not seeing him. The only time that I was in touch with him was when the things happened. Like things, I mean, in the press that affected me or when the CVRA case was filed and there was like rubbish that went out, because I needed information. Because I didn’t know — I didn’t know anything about what was happening and I needed his help. A, to under- — I — I– well, that doesn’t sound right. Let me rephrase that. I don’t mean his help. I meant to have answers, so that I had an ability to defend myself, that’s what I’m talking about. I’m not talking any- —
TODD BLANCHE: So when does that relationship change? So — so you’re working — you talked about when your — the physical relationship stopped and then you’re still working for him, or with him managing his properties and being — serving as like a general manager. You then start your own relationship with another individual from — with Ted from 2003 till or ’10. At what point in that whole period is there like more of a break, where you’re no longer acting as his general manager?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I — I wanted to have a full break when I started dating Ted. And he was clever. I — I — I suppose it would be true to say that I sort of viewed Mr. Epstein, at that point, as sort of family, if you will. Like someone I could rely on. And I should have had more confidence in myself. I can see that now. But at the time, given everything that had happened in my life, I thought that it would — and I saw how he was with other people like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable with him, and I thought this would be — and he always said, I was like family. So he worked hard to make — maintain a relationship with me. He was generous with me. He let me use the plane, for instance, which was very generous, he would check in with my mum. He did things that were meaningful to me in that time. And then, it may still not have worked, but that his — his mother, Paula, had been in a very serious car crash. And I — she had become sort of like a — a surrogate mother for me, sort of, because my mum wasn’t there. I could — I could look after her the way that I would — sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: It’s all right.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The way that I would’ve liked to look after my own mum. So I became very close to his mother. And she had been in a car crash and in , I believe it — it may have been 2005, I — I don’t recall exactly. She took a — her health took a serious decline. And Epstein called me and asked me if I could look after her. And by looking after her, that meant organizing her doctors, making sure she had new clothes, making sure her house was clean.
DAVID MARKUS: Where was she?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She lived in — in a retirement establishment in — outside of Palm Beach, outside of — its West Palm. I want — I was going to say something like the Golden Girls, but it’s not called that. I just don’t remember what it’s called. But it was an old age — it was a retirement home, if you will.
DAVID MARKUS: Todd, I don’t know, we’ve been going for maybe about an hour now. Do you think — is this a good time to —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah — yeah. So we’ll take a — we’ll take a break.
DAVID MARKUS: Yep.
SPENCER HORN: All right. So we’re going to take a break, the time is 10:56. (Break at 10:56 a.m. to 11:07 a.m.)
SPENCER HORN: We’re continuing the proffer interview with Ms. Maxwell. The time is :07 a.m., on Thursday, July 24th.
TODD BLANCHE: All right. So just picking up where we just stopped. So — so you — you have basically a break. Well, not a break, that’s the wrong word, but your — your relationship with Mr. Maxwell [sic] — professional and other changes in 2003, ’04?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. I mean, and over the time that I stay with Ted, the more time I’m with Ted, the more distance I have with him. And then when the arrest — well, let’s go back. When he — whatever — whatever happened in 2005 and he became arrested in 2006.
TODD BLANCHE: So when he’s charged and arrested in what we’ll call the Florida Investigations, that’s what you’re talking about?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I am.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I had — I was not in — well —
TODD BLANCHE: Well, were you part of that investigation?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not.
TODD BLANCHE: Did — did law enforcement ever talk to you as part of that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you, like, the feds never talked to you —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: — the FBI never talked to you?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never even received a phone call.
TODD BLANCHE: — did you — so you didn’t receive a subpoena?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Did the state law enforcement ever reach out to you?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: As far as you know, did the government, either state or federal, subpoena your bank records or subpoena anything from your financial life, during that time? During the — that time?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Not as far as I’m aware. Now, if they did, I don’t know it and I have — I have no idea about that, to be honest. But I’m — I’m not aware of it and I would say no, but maybe you guys do things that I don’t know.
TODD BLANCHE: So how did — how did you
learn of that case? When Mr. Epstein was arrested, or did you know that something was happening before then?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The — the first thing I knew was he had told me he was deciding to redecorate the house in Palm Beach. It didn’t surprise me, it was like a rolling situation.
TODD BLANCHE: And, but by that time are you doing — are you — like he tells you because he wants your help or your relationship changed by this time where you were no longer kind of acting his — as his general manager?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I was — I was still around.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wasn’t gone. I was with Ted. I was traveling. I wasn’t daily — if you would ask me where he was in any given time, I’m not sure I would’ve known then. I mean, it was, I — I felt like I suppose the relationship moved into sort of like a long-term friend-family, you know, like —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — like I felt he had with Eva, if I’m honest.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. So — so he says to you he’s going to redecorate the Palm Beach house.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He — he asked me specifically which decorator he thinks I — he should use, because I had a lot of contacts with decorators and he was not very good with people. He was useless at maintaining relationships with people who worked for him, I’m not. So anyways, I recommended — I think I recommended. I can’t be a hundred percent sure, because it’s been a long time, but I think I recommended Mark Zeff at that time.
TODD BLANCHE: Who?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mark Zeff —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — I believe. And I don’t know why. I — I don’t remember. That’s all lost to time. But anyway, at some point, I think his mother had died now. I can’t remember the timing of all of that either.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I ended up in Palm Beach and he had asked me to come and look at the swatches or whatever he was doing, because they had laid it all out over the house and various things, and I think he’d asked for my opinion. That’s my memory of this. It may also be that Ted and I were going to Palm Beach, because Ted had a golf match or something. There was a reason I was in Palm Beach. It wasn’t solely — I don’t — maybe that’s not true either. I don’t know. So I —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — there’s a, you know, sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was there. I don’t know if that’s part of that time —
TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead — go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — or Ted went there and left me. I don’t know, something. Anyway, I was there. No. That’s not how that went either. No. Anyway, at some point in that time, I saw all the swatches, at some point in 2005, I think that was. And then I believe, or I don’t remember. I — I think I got a phone call actually. I wasn’t in Palm Beach. I think I got a phone call that there was a police at his house or something. There was a —
TODD BLANCHE: And would you have gotten a phone call from him or you think you were just told by somebody that knew that it had happened or don’t — or don’t you remember?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Definitely not him.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it would’ve been the houseman.
TODD BLANCHE: So when that happens, whenever it was, that’s kind of the first time you know that Mr. Epstein’s being investigated for —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — I didn’t even know what that — I didn’t even understand.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn’t have a context for that.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was like, I didn’t even know — I — I didn’t know.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So after —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn’t — I didn’t — I didn’t — I’m not sure even what I thought. I was like, that’s weird.
TODD BLANCHE: — so after he — after you find out about it, what happens with your relationship with him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I asked him. I asked him what was going on —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — and he said, I — I — not to worry. Nothing, nothing, taking care. Don’t worry about it (indiscernible) and then it all went quiet. I didn’t — he didn’t say, he didn’t share. I wasn’t part of it at all. I was off with Ted and I really just —
TODD BLANCHE: Did he tell you — well, why don’t we come back to more specifics around that time period in a few minutes —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: — I want to just finish this opening part. So that case goes on, ultimately it ends. What — what — what was your relationship like with him during that case, when he goes, you know, when he — when he was sentenced.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked — he — he — he told me, he said, “Listen. I’m going to jail.” I was like, “Okay.” And he goes, “I would like you to stay on board to manage the properties, the animals, this and that, and just stay put and I’ll continue to pay you. In case there’s any emergency, I don’t trust anyone.” And I was like, “Okay.”
TODD BLANCHE: Well, when you said continue to pay, had he con— has he —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He had never stopped paying me.
TODD BLANCHE: He never stopped paying you. So even when your relationship changes, you’re getting — does the amount increase from the $25,000 or so a year from the beginning? Like how much are you getting paid yearly?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it ended — at the time, well, we had different payment structures and I’m happy to explain how that was, but I think salary wise, if I’m right, it ended at around a quarter of a million a year.
TODD BLANCHE: How much?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Quarter of a million. $250,000.
TODD BLANCHE: And when — and when did it end? When was that that it stopped?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2008, or ’09.
TODD BLANCHE: So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: ’09. When did he come out of jail? Whenever he came out of jail.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So, and over the years, it increased from what you said was you thought about $25,000 to $250,000. That’s between like ’90, early ’90s until 2009 or ’10, whenever he stopped; is that right?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes — yes.
TODD BLANCHE: And how were you paid?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: W2.
TODD BLANCHE: W2 from which — from what company? Or do you —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He, like I — he just moved me around over to this company, that, I didn’t care —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — and I didn’t care and I didn’t think that — I didn’t understand any rhyme or reason, it doesn’t, I just, you know, whatever —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — so maybe —
TODD BLANCHE: — so when he’s going to go to jail, he says, “Can you stay around and manage everything.”
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
TODD BLANCHE: And do you do that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And then — and then we’ll come back to that.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not manage everything, no. I mean there are other people at this point. My specific role then was very, very diminished.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I reviewed the bill structure that came from the constructions, that were still made, the island —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — and wherever else I was going, Paris at this point, because I speak French, I’m fluent in French. And also my relationship with the French decorator was critical to him. And in the French component part of — of that aspect, that was really vital and so you would have had to find someone who was — well, actually, and the Spanish trilingual, you would’ve had to find someone who was trilingual to — and that he trusted —
TODD BLANCHE: Did you —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — to manage, not steal from him.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you — so when he gets out of jail, between that time 2009 or ’10, and 2019, what’s your relationship like with — with Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Almost nonexistent.
TODD BLANCHE: Why?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — I had just moved on and I just didn’t want to have anything to — I didn’t want the drama. I didn’t want to be associated with …
TODD BLANCHE: So do you recall — when you say “almost non-existent,” does that mean —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It doesn’t mean it —
TODD BLANCHE: — was it some phone calls, some visits —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I definitely.
TODD BLANCHE: — some trips, or what does it mean?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — I — I don’t — I don’t think there were any trips. Oh, I don’t — I don’t think so.
TODD BLANCHE: Where were you living during that time period? Or was it —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Which time period?
TODD BLANCHE: Between 2009, ’10 and 2019?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was back in New York.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you had no — so when you — so — so your — you had phone calls with him on occasion?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Well, I certainly did when it — whenever there was any legal drama or any like, serious press attention, I always called him to try and find out what was going on.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay. And then —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I did email him at that time for those types of details. It was like, what do I do? What, I mean, I was like …
TODD BLANCHE: And — and then when he’s charged in New York federally —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — how did you learn about that case?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In the press.
TODD BLANCHE: And had you, as far as you know, been contacted by law enforcement before his arrest?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I wasn’t in an indictment.
TODD BLANCHE: No. I know that, but even as a witness or — or asking you if you would give documents or materials?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had never — up until he — up until when my lawyers said that, I don’t even know. I — I had no knowledge of them being interested in me, honestly. I don’t — I want to say until he had died. Now I know that my lawyers were in touch with the Southern District of New York at some point after his arrest. I’m pretty sure that had to have happened, right —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — but I — my understanding is that they had not shown any interest. I know my lawyers went to see them once, I believe, and —
TODD BLANCHE: Went to see him meaning Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, them. So Southern District of New York.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. The Southern
District of New York. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. And that they
had been in regular, in touch with him and —
TODD BLANCHE: But now you’re talking
about after Mr. Epstein died or are you talking about before he died?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think, I —
TODD BLANCHE: If you can remember.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Easily verifiable. I
— my memory is that they were in touch with him when he was arrested.
TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know if
anything happened until after his death, then after that.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t think they saw
them — met with them, Southern District of New York I’m talking about now, until after he died. I know that they were in regular telephone contact with them and that my lawyers believed that they had been told that there was no interest in me —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — and were absolutely
stunned when I was arrested. But maybe stunned is too big a word, but surprised. I certainly was.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So let’s — okay.
So that’s — that’s — was a long description of — of what was a very long life and that was very helpful. So I want to go back and talk more specifically now about particular areas, and, but that was a — a very helpful kind of foundation for — for us. The first — the first thing I want to talk about, you talked about earlier on, about Mr. Epstein’s financial success. What — you know, do you know how he — when you first meet him, at some point you say, “I got this place for you to rent, you can’t afford it.” And he laughs at you and says, “Yes. I can.” What did you learn about his wealth and how he was — and how he accumulated his money?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can tell you what he
told me.
TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I — I know that he
was hired from working at a private school whose name eludes me at this point.
LEAH SAFFIAN: Dalton.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Dalton. He was
working at Dalton, he was a math teacher. And he met, I think it was Ace, I’m not sure. He met someone from Bear who hired him, because he was very good at math. And I believe that he then worked on creating a trading of, oh, my gosh.
TODD BLANCHE: Just describe it. It’s
okay. Go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He came — came up
with some new type of trading system. Not — not a system so much, but as a — as a — as a –as vehicle. A trading vehicle.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m just escaping
right now.
TODD BLANCHE: And this is while — while
he was working at — at Bear Stearns?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: At Bear Stearns. Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And, well —
TODD BLANCHE: And was this before you met
him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: So this is what he told
you.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: What you learned?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. This is what he
told me —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — himself.
TODD BLANCHE: And so — and then
eventually he starts a financial firm? Do you know that to be true or no? J. Epstein & Company. You ever heard of that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it’s, yeah.
Yes. So hang on a minute. So I — this I did not know, but this I have subsequently learned —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — is that he had some
problem or some issue at Bear Stearns and there was some, I don’t know, disagreement. He wasn’t fired, because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace and with Jimmy, at least by the time I met him, but they were working with him and he ran — he had cli- — money at Bear Stearns, and —
TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — his money, his
client’s money. We’ll — I’ll come to that. But he started — he told me himself that he started a business where he looked for stolen money. So if somebody — let’s see. I’m trying to think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can’t think of anything, I’ve been with — not great — I’ll — I’ll give it to you. So let’s say you have El Chapo, oh God, I don’t know where he comes from. But anyway, we’ve got El Chapo. And El Chapo’s laundering money or still — he’s working with the Sinaloa Cartel and he steals money from the Sinaloa Cartel and he moves it to wherever. So he’s got stolen money from the Sinaloa, goes to it. This didn’t happen. I’m just —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah — yeah. I
understand.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — just coming up with
something in my head. And the Sinaloa says to Epstein, “Can you track down my billion dollars that, the car- — the other cartel stole from me?” And Epstein will go and find the billion dollars and will take a portion of the money that was stolen at a fee and give back the remainder. That would be on a percentage basis.
TODD BLANCHE: No. But like what you just
described, which I appreciate what you said, a hypothetical —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The — the — please,
that was completely hypothetical.
TODD BLANCHE: — but that — but that
would involve like, so two kind of drug cartels stealing from each other. Practically speaking, did — he was a — more of a businessman, correct?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So here’s how I think
that started, is that he had a girlfriend. It was always you — you — always to the girls. I guess there was a girl whose name will come back to me, maybe not, whilst we’re here, but I don’t know, maybe. There’s a woman —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — there’s always a
woman. And he — she was the daughter of a billionaire, for instance. And that billionaire, whoever his –whatever his name was, had had some money stolen. And for some reason this woman introduced Jeffrey, and Jeffrey, I think that’s how that business started. That’s what I remember.
TODD BLANCHE: And is that something he
told you about or something that happened while you knew him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Something he told
me before I met him.
TODD BLANCHE: And so when you meet him
and — and once you’re part of his life in the early to mid ’90s, what is he doing to make money that you see? He — does he have clients? Does he have rich clients? Does he have famous clients? And — and how — and what — if he does have clients, what service is he providing them?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He does have — well,
obviously there’s the one very famous client that everybody talks about, which is Les Wexner. That was a very important client to him. And he — I think it’s probably helpful to describe what I imagine — what I imagine, know — would I know to be true about what he managed for Les. And there’s some bits that I’ll be improvising —
TODD BLANCHE: Yep.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — I —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — I want to just make
you understand, I was not part of Epstein’s business world, except tangentially and obviously. So what I’m talking about is I — what I observed or what I overheard or what I saw within the business, but I wasn’t responsible for any of the client’s money or anything like that. So it’s separate.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah. I understand.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So with Les, for
instance, it was really all encompassing. It could go from the structure of the business. So he would — he structured or restructured The Limited. I know that, and I’ll come back to that because I also traveled with him and Les, and I was in business meetings with them on the plane when they were there. So I could observe and I could hear some of this. And whilst I’m not necessarily terribly business sophisticated, I’m sophisticated enough to be able to at least have some knowledge of what was happening. All right. So then he restructured the business. He restructured his entire personal finances, and would also handle all of the investment strategy. I don’t know if it was — if it was a hundred percent —
TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Wexner is what you’re
saying?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. Yes. All —
this is all Wexner I’m talking about now. So let’s say you had a billion dollars to invest. So you would, you know, in people’s normal investment portfolios, you would have, you know, some T-bonds and this and that, but Epstein’s strategies would be much more sophisticated than that.
TODD BLANCHE: And so just staying with
Mr. Wexner. Does — from what you heard or saw, is Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages? Like so — so there would be a deal and he would be paid or was — did you understand it to be like a flat fee? Was he a business partner? Like how did you understand him to be paid?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was more ?
la carte. So let’s say this is a conversation I actually — Epstein told me. So all — illustrated for me, said if I saved someone $5 billion, he would take a flat percentage of that $5 billion. He wouldn’t have $5 billion back, and he would take —
TODD BLANCHE: When you say you think
that, is that because you heard him talking about that or you — you …
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It would be a
combination of both. He certainly told me that and I heard him talk to people like that. I couldn’t — sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: No — no. Go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Did — was there — did —
did he give — did Mr. Wexner gift a property in New York to Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we’re talking about
st Street. So I don’t know what the business deal was, because, again, I’m not part of his business thing, but I think what happened would be that, let’s say Les owed him in, theoretically, for his services, $100 million or whatever it was. He could have traded that against the property.
TODD BLANCHE: But do you know that that
happened or that’s — are you — are you kind of — do you remember whether there was conversations about that or are you just thinking that could be one way that it happened?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m not sure. And I’m
not trying to be — I just don’t remember if that’s something I know or if that’s something that I remember, or if it’s something that I subsequently know. I believe — I believe that to be what happened, but I don’t want to tell you that I have —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that make sense?
TODD BLANCHE: Did Mr. Wexner and
Mr. Epstein — are you aware of they — of their falling out that they ultimately had?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think — I wasn’t
there and I don’t know how it happened. I only know what Les has said in the press.
TODD BLANCHE: So you only know about
their, you know, their falling out or whatever you want to call it, from what you’ve kind of read, not from any firsthand knowledge? You did — you weren’t there, you weren’t part of that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know somebody named
Steven Hoffenberg?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Only from the press.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And so you don’t
know anything about whatever business relationship they may have had, Mr. Epstein —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never spoke about him,
never mentioned it. I — I only learned about that, whatever that is, even — I don’t even know what the truth is of that story, from the press.
TODD BLANCHE: How about Leon Black?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I did meet Leon.
I do know Leon.
TODD BLANCHE: When do you remember — and
again, I know we’re talking about a very long time ago, but do you remember approximately when you met him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I could have met Leon,
not really — so I might have met him, nothing to do, because Leon Black is very good friends with other friends of mine. I would’ve met him, when I say socially, I might have met him. How Leon and Epstein became really good friends, I don’t — I’m not sure.
TODD BLANCHE: But not through you, as far
as you recall?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Not through me as
far as I know. No. I — in fact, I’m — I’m sure that’s not through me.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know what kind of
work Mr. Epstein was doing for Mr. Black over the years?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Same as what he did
for Wexner.
TODD BLANCHE: So we just talked about two
individuals. And again, I know we’re talking about a, maybe a 15-year time period or even longer. How many clients like that did Mr. Epstein have?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But why don’t I just
give you the names that I remember and that’s —
TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Why won’t I just give
you the names.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Do you want the names?
TODD BLANCHE: Sure. Go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Elizabeth Johnson —
Johnson & Johnson.
TODD BLANCHE: When did — as far as you
know, when did the relationship between Ms. Johnson and Mr. Epstein start?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: ’90s. ’90 — I
don’t — I — ’95, ’96. ’90s.
TODD BLANCHE: So during the time period?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. We’re talking
’90s. We’re talking when I was there. When I was around.
TODD BLANCHE: And how did the
relationship start?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know how he
became that friendly where he ended up managing her money, I wasn’t there. I mean, he — I really had a separate life. We really had separate lives —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — except where they
synced.
TODD BLANCHE: But it wasn’t from —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It wasn’t from me.
TODD BLANCHE: — from you?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. It was not.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And what’s your
understanding of what Mr. Epstein did for Ms. Johnson?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Same as what he did
for Wexner. And when I — and you have to understand, it — it went down to, in tiny details. So I remember this — I remember, this is an actual memory, that he would make the contracts for the maids, for the people who worked in their homes.
TODD BLANCHE: So he would assist his
clients, at times, with — you’re saying with even small things like contractual relations with — with —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He said no detail was
too small, because everything that affected how they lived and how they managed their life, was something that he felt he was — if they want, he would be responsible for, to make sure that the contract — so that if you had to fire someone, it wouldn’t come back and sue you or if that — that sort of …
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So Mr. Black,
Mr. Werner [sic] — Ms. Johnson. Who else?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What’s the name of the
woman from Ohio (inaudible).
TODD BLANCHE: Know someone named
Jes Staley.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. I do know Jes.
TODD BLANCHE: Who’s that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was at Morgan
Stanley and at Barclays.
TODD BLANCHE: What do — do you know
whether he and Mr. Epstein had a relationship?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not a — not a
physical one.
TODD BLANCHE: Well —
DAVID MARKUS: Business one.
TODD BLANCHE: — I didn’t suggest.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry, I just —
TODD BLANCHE: No. I’m saying a — a
relationship in the broadest sense of word; business, personal —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — both. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Both.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And do you know when
they met?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I — no. I don’t
know when they met. But you can time it. Well, I don’t know that you can. No. I don’t know.
TODD BLANCHE: So, but what was the nature
of their relationship, as far as you know?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think they were
friends and I think that they were business partners. Well, partners, too strong a word, but they were — they did business together.
TODD BLANCHE: So did you — again, I want
to stay focused on the time where you were the most involved in his life, so —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The ’90s.
TODD BLANCHE: — the early ’90s through
early 2000s.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the beginning —
beginning of the 2000s, yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Did — did you — so we
talked about four people, so —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There’s more.
TODD BLANCHE: — were there more? Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes. There were
more. There was a lady whose name I just can’t — can I get my book? Maybe I wrote them down.
TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: (Indiscernible)
Epstein wouldn’t really let me meet his clients.
TODD BLANCHE: What book are you using?
What is that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wrote some notes for
the meeting.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Great. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Is that alright?
TODD BLANCHE: No. That’s fine. I just
was curious what — what we’re looking at.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, okay.
DAVID MARKUS: Not the birthday book.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It’s not the birthday
book. No. We are going to come to that, I’m sure.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. I wrote
down some names because I tried to make — I just want you to understand my — my memory’s not as good as it was, because when I was in Brooklyn, I was in the SHU for almost two years, and I was on suicide watch for almost two years, which meant that they woke me up every 15 minutes for the entire time. And it’s — it really did affect my ability to …
TODD BLANCHE: Understand.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I’m not —
TODD BLANCHE: So you’ve taken some notes
in anticipation —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just made some names
in — in advance for this —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. So go ahead.
So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — and you’re happy to
look at them as well, if you want.
TODD BLANCHE: No. Go — go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Oh, well, funny
you say, first two names. One is Wexner, two is Staley, three is Leon Black.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Glenn Dubin was a
client.
TODD BLANCHE: Who’s that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Eva Dubin’s husband.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What was their, I
mean, if you can — do you know when — about when that relationship started?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Whenever — well,
wouldn’t have been before they got married, for sure. So if you’re going to start — you’re going to date that from wherever that was. And then Epstein was heavily involved with Highbridge Capital and the financing or selling of Highbridge to JP Morgan.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Go ahead.
Eva Dubin. Yep.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. You’re only
looking for clients, so, all right. There’s a woman — well he — there’s a woman in Ohio. I just can’t think of her name, but it will — I tried to remember it yesterday and I can’t.
DAVID MARKUS: So this is a good thing.
Like, you know, as you think of things, write it down, and if they have any other names, they’ll ask you. But you —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Just —
DAVID MARKUS: — don’t — don’t force it
out. So — so you’ll have time to think about this, especially today, this afternoon, overnight —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
DAVID MARKUS: — because we’ll probably
meet tomorrow.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But you can find them.
I mean, if you basically find a billionaire female.
TODD BLANCHE: So the woman in Ohio who’s
wealthy, that you worked with.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And well, you can
identify her yourself because she had the largest Klein painting. That was huge. So you can find her, because it’ll be in a museum.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So that’s her.
TODD BLANCHE: And so he — that was one
of Mr. Epstein’s clients?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: She was one of
Mr. client — Mr. Epstein’s clients as well?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Who else?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I think that
there was people, other people that he would, like, assist. I know that he helped Lynn Forester, who became Lynn de Rothschild. She’ll deny it and she has, but she — she can’t.
TODD BLANCHE: And when you say “help,”
the same help in business or what help?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so– so — I
have no idea what he did for her. I know he helped her financially. Her husband was the controller of New York. So, but I don’t — again, I’m not inside his business, but he would’ve — his — his — this notion that he black — blackmailed men or we don’t really have to go there, that he wasn’t a businessman and that everything he did was a fraud or a funk or what — I don’t believe that to be true.
TODD BLANCHE: Why?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry?
TODD BLANCHE: Why do you — so you say
you don’t believe it to be true, but show me why you think that.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: Just from — I know you’ve
been talking about it, that he was very — he was very conscientious. He was very good at math. He was — took, paid a lot of attention to his clients, but — but yes. You’re right. There’s allegations of — of blackmail or also that — that there was some level of — of fraud involved in what he did, and you don’t believe it. Why do you — why do you say that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I — let me
rephrase that. If there was fraud, I never saw it. What I saw or what I felt when I — his — I ran that office. I mean, ran. I didn’t — I was responsible for the staff. People worked. There were lawyers, there were accountants. I never heard him — I never — wit- — I never felt anything, I don’t know, icky.
DAVID MARKUS: Did — did you ever see him
blackmail a —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
DAVID MARKUS: — a client?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
DAVID MARKUS: Did you ever see him
blackmail a — an — a friend or an acquaintance?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: Well, so I think when folks
talk about block — blackmail, and we can talk about — sorry about that.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: We can talk about that now.
There are a lot of allegations about him, which we’ll — which we should talk about and we can do that now. And the fact that he abused young women.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Full stop. Okay. Which
means, the way that I’m defining abuse, as has been widely reported, is that — that he would cause young women in high school to be recruited to come to his house and give him massages. And a part of — and the — and the — and as part of that, he would sexually abuse them, okay?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: So I want to talk about
that. But as it relates to blackmail, the question is whether you’re aware of any time, that any of the individuals we’re talking about, and we’ll talk about others, received massages from women who were under or may have been under 18. And that whether there was any sexual assaults or sexual contact between any of these people and those masseuses, which would’ve allowed then, Mr. Epstein, potentially, to blackmail them and say, “You have to continue to work with me or you have to give me money, or else I’m going to tell the world that — that — that you did this.”
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. I — I think
this is a really good place to start with how this story began.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So even, let’s assume
that that premise is correct, that he was doing that and he was going to tell everybody, going to say, “oh, you know, you had inappropriate relations with an underage girl.” If you don’t have a video or photograph, photographic evidence, because I — I’m not sure that even the FBI would take that. Well, maybe today, but certainly not back then, would take that seriously. So you have to have something to say, “Hey, you know, look, I’ve got this video of you doing terrible things and you need to.” So I built those houses, many of them. I decorated those houses. I put the electricians in for the wiring. I never wired, nor saw, a single house that had any type of inappropriate, let’s say, video surveillance. And I’ll define that for you. Inappropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom, in a bedroom, in any private area of a home.
TODD BLANCHE: In a room where there were
massages given?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Inappropriate. I
would say I would define “appropriate” surveillance to be the front door of a house, or potentially, as in 71st Street, the physical plant. Anywhere else would be grotesque.
TODD BLANCHE: So I just want to come back
to — I know I’m just hopefully stating the obvious, but when you say “the houses,” you’re talking about his New York —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — brownstone?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: You’re talking about the
island in — in the Caribbean?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: You’re talking about the
residence in Palm Beach?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: And you’re talking about
the ranch in New Mexico?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Anywhere else?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Paris.
TODD BLANCHE: And in Paris. And so —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the plane. I saw
some ridiculous thing with the plane —
TODD BLANCHE: And the plane. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — that was what we’re
doing. Yes. I didn’t —
TODD BLANCHE: So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — I didn’t hire any
electrician on the plane. Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: — so unequivocally,
unequivocally from what you know, and you only know what you know —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I only know what I
know.
TODD BLANCHE: — but from what you know,
you do not believe a camera exists, or a video camera or a camera that takes pictures, inside any of his residences?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct.
TODD BLANCHE: So even the appropriate
cameras that you just talked about, which would be kind of exterior security cameras, did you know whether there was any cameras, that you’re aware of, inside any of the locations?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never, with one
exception.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What’s the
exception?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The exception is
Palm Beach.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the reason — so
in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen. He noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase, call it his briefcase. And he called in the Palm Beach police and they, the Palm Beach police installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase.
TODD BLANCHE: Where was that? Do you
remember?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: At his desk in — so
the house on the ground floor was — he had a desk, sort of in a corner. There was that camera. I think there was another camera. I think there were two or maybe three cameras. I believe only on the ground floor, wherever he may have had — maybe he had another office in the cabana. There may have been a camera there.
TODD BLANCHE: When was this? I’m not
looking for an exact date, but what time period are you thinking about when you say this?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2003. I think I can
date it for you precisely, actually, 2003. I’m pretty firm on that date.
TODD BLANCHE: So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I can be firm
because John Alessi, the butler was fired in the end of 2002 and he was the thief.
TODD BLANCHE: So aside from law
enforcement installing a camera, to try to catch somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein, you’re not aware of any cameras at the island — no. Sorry. You’re — just so we record it because …
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry — sorry —
sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: No. That’s okay. You were
nodding your head no. So what about —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No cameras anywhere,
outside of, possibly, things that would — I would consider — myself, I would consider normal. So the garage gate, something like that, a front door.
TODD BLANCHE: Outside, like security
cameras?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Security cameras.
TODD BLANCHE: No. I — I —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there were cameras
inside in the 71st Street that did the plant, the physical plant, because it was a commercial building. So you had the whole — that’s a real thing there. It’s a commercial building. And there were — there was one camera on the — on the front door, internal, from the internal that did the front door, as I recall. But I — there were no other cameras inside the house.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever — how about
photographs. Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein, or anybody around him, take pictures of anybody in compromising positions with women or with — or with anybody?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever hear, when you
were present for conversations that Mr. Epstein was having, or others were having, anybody accuse him of blackmailing them or of trying to extort them, because of something Mr. Epstein knew?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: There have been — and —
and you — you — in the discovery you got in the New York case, okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: And in the civil cases that
you’ve been part of —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — associated with
Mr. Epstein, have you ever been given or ever been told that video exists, like what we’re talking about, or photos were taken that — that were compromising?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in the — in both
of those, I never received no pictures or anything from the civil case.
TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But in the criminal
case, I received videos of Epstein talking to women and stuff like that. I did get those. I also saw binders, photographs of women and (indiscernible). I never saw any, well, I don’t know — I don’t know how old some of these women were. There were definitely some of the victims from Palm Beach, the photographs of them in — in — without clothing.
TODD BLANCHE: And in that — in those
photographs, were — the victims that were photographed, were there any of the people you’ve talked about? Like, were there men with the victims or were they just photographs of the victims?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There was no men with
these pictures. There was no client of his with those pictures. They would be standalone, for want of a better word, like modeling shots. If you were — if you — if you were, I don’t know.
DAVID MARKUS: Pictures that Epstein had
with the girls, but not Epstein with the clients and the girls.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you — I understand you
said you got those in the discovery. Did you know those — those pictures — pictures like that existed? So right now I’m talking about photographs of victims or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein had on his computer or wherever he had them. Did you know that those photos existed before you got them in discovery?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some of them,
absolutely, because they were in his house. Some of these pictures were on his, you know, credenza or whatever.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some pictures I’ve
simply never seen before. I mean, there was — I — I had never seen some of them. Some of them I had, some of them I hadn’t, I mean.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you — so — so you’re
right, and I — I accept that having video or photographs of somebody famous or powerful in a compromising position, would be good blackmail. But — so separate — putting aside what you’ve said about the fact that you don’t know of any existence of those, did you observe, over the years, the folks we’re talking about, or others which we can talk about, getting massages from young women?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I — I just — I
think it’s really helpful to understand a few things that has been missed in this whole mishigas.
DAVID MARKUS: That’s a technical term.
TODD BLANCHE: I’ll look it up later.
Go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought about this
obviously a lot and I’ve given it —
TODD BLANCHE: Yep.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — some — so this is
the benefit of — some benefit of what I saw and some benefit of what I now think, so just for clarity’s sake. I think — I just want to say for the record, that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of, not all, but some of what he’s accused of. And I’m not here to defend him in any respect whatsoever. I don’t want to, and I don’t think he requires, nor deserves any type of protection or — from me in any way, to sugarcoat what he did or didn’t do. So there’s that. However, the man I met and the man he became, I believe that there is a progression, and I don’t think that the man I met is the man that he became. I believe he became that man over a period of time. Now we can discuss anything you want and I’ll tell you everything I know, but I think somebody who has an interest, however you define that, in underage people is obviously someone who is unwell. But I don’t think that you wake up one day and you start doing what he’s accused of. I think this is something that you develop or you progress to. I — I think, because —
DAVID MARKUS: Ghislaine, before — before
you get into all that, let’s answer the top line question and then get into it.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. The top line
question is?
DAVID MARKUS: Did you ever see any of
these people with underage women?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No — no. I — so the
reason I’m saying that is not — is not to avoid that question, but it’s because by the time, when you were talking in the ’90s, I don’t think he was there. I — there’s that description. I think that this, what you were talking about is a later version.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that — is that?
TODD BLANCHE: No. I understand that and
I do want to talk — I’m not —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it’s just I’m — I
think you need to separate the periods of time —
TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — because it —
this — one of the things that was definitely missing in my trial, and definitely missing from the narrative, is this notion, this, everything happened and he was always but — no. I don’t — I don’t believe that to be true.
TODD BLANCHE: So I mean, that —
that’s — that’s fine. And I do want to talk about that. I’m not — I’m not pushing that away. I’m just putting it aside for a moment. What Mr. Epstein did and — and, frankly, what — what you did, or are accused of doing, is one thing that I — that we’ll talk about, but what — right now what I want to understand is — is whether one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his clients or — or took care of them, or some would say blackmail them, was by encouraging them to have — to interact with — with women, underage or not.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think in the
’90s, he may have encouraged them, but these were people who were in their 20s or 30s.
TODD BLANCHE: So — so. Understand that.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: May have — so he
would have a masseuse, right? And he did, male and female, by the way, in the ’90s, that’s never been discussed. Both in yoga and everything, there were men as well as women. And so if he would travel, and I can show them to you, I highlighted them on the flight record, so you could see that there really were men that were also there. He would say, would you like to do yoga with Tito? Or would you like a massage with this one? But they would be in their late 20s and professional masseuses.
TODD BLANCHE: So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think there’s a
distinction.
TODD BLANCHE: And I want to talk about
actual individuals here. But — and I understand the distinction between somebody who’s an adult and — and — and someone who’s underage. But even with somebody who’s an adult, did you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that, whether it’s a client or somebody else?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So with a — with a —
I certainly witnessed him. So if you were staying with him and you had a massage that — he would often travel with a masseuse. He would say, hey, would you like a massage? And he did do that, yes.
TODD BLANCHE: But would you or him or
anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards, to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual contact?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never did, no.
TODD BLANCHE: So meaning — and then
coming back to the blackmail issue.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yeah.
TODD BLANCHE: There’s nothing wrong with
getting a massage, Of course not. Especially, you know, especially if somebody’s obviously an adult, a masseuse. There’s — I’m not quibbling with that. But my question is that there’s a lot of accusations that — that one of the way Mr. Maxwell, I’m sorry, Mr. Epstein was successful, was — was through this idea of blackmail.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never —
TODD BLANCHE: And yes, young — young
women and — and is a crime. Children are — is a crime.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely.
TODD BLANCHE: But even women over the age
of 18, if — if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or whomever to get massages and have inappropriate sexual contact with the masseuses, that’s — that’s a separate issue. Maybe — maybe slightly nuanced, but did you ever know him to do that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I never did
absolutely myself. I never heard him ask someone. I never — I never heard that. I never — no one — in the entire time I was with him or friends with him, or had anyone, no one ever reported to me or came to me and said that anything inappropriate happened or was upset by — I never saw a tear. I never saw ever any of that.
TODD BLANCHE: And when you say, “No one
reported to me,” meaning like the masseuses —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
TODD BLANCHE: — or any of the house
staff —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
DAVID MARKUS: Or the clients.
TODD BLANCHE: — or the clients
themselves?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So — so let’s —
again, I want to stay — and — and coming back now to what you were talking about a moment ago with Mr. Epstein’s kind of progression or — or — or getting worse. So just staying within the ’90s. What role — what did — what role did you have or what did you observe — which are two different issues, but both important — with respect to recruiting masseuses to come to either, I guess, Palm Beach or to travel, or eventually New Mexico. What role did you have in that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked me to find
masseuses for him.
TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He asked me if I could
find him masseuses.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Like, as part of —
like you said, you were his general manager. As part of all your — your duties, that was one of them?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I did do that. So
the first person I believe that I introduced him to as a masseuse was somebody called . She was, I don’t know, mid, late 20s. Professional masseuse.
TODD BLANCHE: And was this something that
happened early on in your relationship or — and again, I know we’re talking about the ’90s, but are we talking about early ’90s or is this later on?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in terms of
massage, I am a — I have a lot of injuries. I do a lot of dangerous sports and have had multiple serious accidents, and walk without any lameness, because of physical therapy and massage. I’ve — that to me is a very — it’s medicinal for me. So Epstein, whatever his massage situation, whatever — he loved massage. And if I met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or masseur, I introduced them. And he — because I got them, and he asked me if I did, and I said yes. And that’s — I’m pretty sure that would’ve — well, I don’t remember. ’93, ’92, from the beginning.
TODD BLANCHE: So — so go ahead. So then
what happens over the next, you know, like there’s been — there’s a ton of writing and a ton of, I guess, testimony as well, but also public reporting, DOJ REDACTION about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort that you were a part of, that he was a part of, and others, to try to find more and more masseuses. What — is that — is that true, and what role did you have in that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was partially
true.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it is true that I
found masseuses and he became more insistent. He — he — he liked new all the time. He got bored. So he would be bored with a masseuse and he would say, find me a new masseuse. I am the entire opposite. If I find someone that I like, I stay with them. I’m like, I don’t want new. He would drive for new. So that is true. And in my effort to find them, I would go to massage spas, like legitimate spas. Not — we’re not talking, you know, funky ones that people have. So — and I — if I got a massage from somebody in a spa, that was — I liked — I liked, I asked them if they would do home visits. If they said yes, I would ask them to come to the house and he would see if he liked them or not. But these were people who worked in spas. I never, ever checked their age and I never checked their credentials. I never asked for a certificate.
TODD BLANCHE: What —
DAVID MARKUS: But just to be clear, you
never thought anybody was under 18?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never crossed — I
never — no. That was never my — that was never a drive.
TODD BLANCHE: What — what did you know
at the time about him, Mr. Epstein, requiring masseuses to be naked or requiring masseuses to either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein or to be there if Mr. Epstein masturbated or things like that. And again, I’m asking you about a 15-year period or whatever, 10-year period. So I appreciate, it’s a very broad question. So answer it in a way that, you know, addresses what you’ve been charged with doing, but also what’s been said about you.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I don’t —
the ’90s, I don’t think that I ever thought — that never would cross my mind. I’m not sure that I thought about that in those contexts at all, until his arrest and those papers came out. But I believe the — the subject of the — the question that you’re asking me, I believe started in the 2000s.
TODD BLANCHE: In the 2000 time period?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. 2000.
TODD BLANCHE: Why do you — why do you
think —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 2000.
TODD BLANCHE: Like what — what in your
mind makes you think that that’s the time that it started?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think because in
December of 2001, he met And I think was responsible for that in its entirety. And the reason I believe that, so this — she — she was a self-confessed having been sexually abused as a young girl, and was trained — her words I’m quoting now, not mine, in all the arts of whatever that is, the sex program by a man called Ron Eppinger, who was her pimp from when she was 14, I believe, or 15, I don’t know. And in her book describes him training her to be what every man wants in all its manners, fellatio and everything else. I believe that then what happened was that he met her, and she came as a masseuse to his house, in December of 2001 is when I DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION think it started. Now, what their relationship was or what happened with them in that early period of time, I cannot say. What I can say is that he liked her and she started to travel with him at that time period. I believe — I know, then, what happened was that she — when she first started to see him or first came into his orbit as his masseuse or whatever, she was engaged to be married and wearing an engagement ring, and was living with her fianc?. She broke up after a few months, with her fianc?, and took up with the local drug dealer. So let’s say after four or five months of — in the time period when she was seeing Epstein, let’s say we’re now May, June of 2002 or is it 2000. I can’t remember. From whenever she hits the — whatever that is if that’s 2000. I think it’s 2000. I’m sorry. I think it’s when she met him. December of . So — so then you go through — I don’t remember. You’ll have to look.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I’m not holding you
to exact dates. I’m not —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I mean, I’m just
trying to — I’m giving the —
TODD BLANCHE: — I appreciate.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So then I think — so
she — she takes up with the local drug dealer and she becomes druggie, druggie. Like, you know, how druggies — well, maybe you don’t. I live with a lot in Tallahassee. They become even more unreliable than normal. And at some point, she’s now working somewhere else. He stopped seeing her, because he doesn’t like people who do drugs. And I think that not seeing her lasted five or six months. And in that period of time, she got arrested for theft, and she had a warrant out for her arrest. Now, this I’ve pieced together because this piece I didn’t know. She then called Epstein to — to have help avoiding the warrant for her arrest, and he sent her to Thailand to get a massage therapy license. This is the bit that I guess. This is the bit that I extrapolated. In the period of time from when she came back to when she left, he asked her to replace herself as his masseuse or whatever — whatever she was doing, and she brought the first replacement for her. That would’ve been one of the accusers in my case, I think, would’ve been . DOJ REDACTION And that — and then everyone who came subsequent to or simultaneously, if she wasn’t the first, I don’t know. Everyone — every single person who came to his house, came through and her boyfriend, Tony, and then whoever else underneath her. And that is how it started.
TODD BLANCHE: So before her —
LEAH SAFFIAN: Tony Figueroa.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Tony Figueroa is her
boyfriend.
TODD BLANCHE: Before her — so now going
back in the ’90s. You don’t believe that Mr. Epstein was abusing masseuses?
DAVID MARKUS: Underage?
TODD BLANCHE: Or over age? I mean, I
think — well, I’m using abuse in the broadest sense of word, because I’m assuming that you — you — you — you — you — you said that you have no idea of the year — you– you always assumed the masseuses were over age, right?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
TODD BLANCHE: So when I’m talking about
abuse, I’m even talking about an adult masseuse who comes in to give a massage and is told to take off their clothes, told they’re not going to get paid if DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION- they don’t take off their clothes. Basically suggested they had to watch him masturbate. Like the things that have been publicly said about what he did.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m not —
TODD BLANCHE: For now I’m not — I’m not
distinguishing adults or — or — or young or underage women for that. I’m saying abuse.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m — I’m going to
think that that would’ve been a habit.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m going to say that
the massage game was a habit. And I think —
DAVID MARKUS: What does that mean?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That means that I’m
sure that he didn’t suddenly start having relations with masseuses in 2002.
DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I am sure he must have
had relations with masseuses, who knows when.
TODD BLANCHE: But you’re saying, as far
as you — I — I used the word abuse. You’re saying that as far as you sit here today, you would describe that more as consensual? Meaning the masseuse did those — did this willingly?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — I saw him with
lots of masseuses. I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. So based on my observation, I don’t think that if you are being raped, as now he’s like this prolific — I just — I just can’t imagine why you would return.
TODD BLANCHE: That’s not what you
observed at the time?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not what I observed at
the time, no.
TODD BLANCHE: I want to — we’re — we’re
going to spend a little — we’re going to spend more time on this issue, because I — I think it’s important. But just going back to kind of the — the question that I started with in this area, which is that it ties into the blackmail issue. So we talked about people that were his clients, and you’ve mentioned President Clinton, and then early on —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I never said he
was a client.
TODD BLANCHE: I — I did not say you
said. I’m saying when you talk about his clients.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, okay. Right.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And puts his clients
off the side.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: And then you mentioned some
other people. You mentioned President Clinton —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — you mentioned President
Trump early on. Who were other famous/politicians, who were other individuals in Mr. Epstein’s life during that time period? So the early ’90s —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was the ’90s.
Let’s — should we just —
TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Congressman
McMillen.
TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: McMillen.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Henry Rosovsky, who
was the provost of Harvard. Hang on (Indiscernible).
TODD BLANCHE: Sure. You’re looking at
your — your — your notes.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. Go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Joe Pagano, Jerry
Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper, Dan Abramson. I don’t know if in the ’90s Tom Pritzker, Ace, Jimmy Cayne, Lou Ranieri. I mean, there were —
TODD BLANCHE: What about the royal
family?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. He didn’t know
them in the ’90s.
TODD BLANCHE: What about the — the —
what about Prince Andrew?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Didn’t know him in the
’90s.
TODD BLANCHE: When did —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well — is that
right?
TODD BLANCHE: I wouldn’t know. I do not
know. So I don’t want you to have — to worry about exact dates. You’re — you’re not positive about that. But you don’t have a specific recollection of that being in the ’90s?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — I can — I can
date it for you, I think, but I can’t give you —
TODD BLANCHE: That’s okay. I think
that’s fine. So with respect to just — and we’ll — we’ll take a break in a minute to get some food. But just with respect to Mr. — with respect to the individuals you just talked about. So again, focus on the ’90s. And so the people that I’m talking about right now, and we might add some names later. So we’re talking about the — the clients that he worked with, which you’ve mentioned several of. And I know that that wasn’t exhaustive, but you mentioned several of them. And then the — the kind of what — what I called famous friends, but the — the prominent individuals that were in his life in the ’90s. Did — did — does any stick out in your mind as having received massages? All of them.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Henry Rosovsky
received a massage.
TODD BLANCHE: And why do you — why does
that stick out in your memory?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because I saw him in a
bathrobe at 71st Street, and he had received a massage, he told me.
TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
that — whether there was any — whether the masseuse was naked during that massage?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wouldn’t have any
idea.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I doubt it. He was
like in his 80s.
TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I doubt it. He was
like in his 80s.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So — but do you
know — notwithstanding his age —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Minsky, sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: Say that again.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Minsky was another
person.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether, for
example, President Clinton ever received a massage?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t believe he
did.
TODD BLANCHE: And what makes you say you
don’t believe he did?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, because I
don’t — so that’s a good question. The time that Epstein and President Clinton spent together, the only times I believe — well, obviously they traveled. There was that, you know, the plane, they went on the plane 26 times or whatever. That would be one journey. So they spent time on the plane together, and I don’t believe there was ever a massage on the plane. So that would’ve been the only time that I think that President Clinton could have even received a massage. And he didn’t, because I was there.
TODD BLANCHE: And you mentioned that
early — in the very beginning of the conversation, you mentioned President Trump in the early ’90s.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: What — what’s — what did
you observe, as far as President Trump, and his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I just want to
say for my relationship with President Trump — relationship’s a big word — but I just want to say that I met him or I believe I may have, because of my father in the ’90s.
TODD BLANCHE: Yep. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my father liked him
very much, and he was loved — really liked his wife as well, because we were both Czechoslovakian. And as far as I’m concerned, President Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me. And I just want to say that I find — I — I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming the President now. And I like him, and I’ve always liked him. So that is the sum and substance of my entire relationship with him.
TODD BLANCHE: What about Mr. Epstein’s
relationship with him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know how they
met, and I don’t know how they became friends. I certainly saw them together and I remember the few times I observed them together, but they were friendly. I mean, they seemed friendly.
TODD BLANCHE: Was that in social settings
or was that in private settings?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe I only ever
saw them in social settings. I don’t recall any private settings.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever — have you
ever been to Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have.
TODD BLANCHE: In what time period are you
thinking about when you say yes?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t remember when
the President purchased Mar-a-Lago. So from whenever it turned into the club, I went there and I was — loved going there.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you — did you go there
alone or with Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mostly alone.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know where —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the times I went
there it was for an event, maybe once or twice.
TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
Mr. Epstein ever went there?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — I believe he did,
but again, we really were — he — he didn’t take me with him all the time. So he would go and — oh, right. He never — I never — well, he did from time to time, but he would go alone. I think he would maybe go himself to the spa. I certainly did.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
President Trump receive a massage?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe — you
said that you — you were — I mean, have you seen the — there’s photographs, public photographs of Mr. Epstein and President Trump together.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: And there’s photographs
of — I think you’re — you’re in some of the photographs —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — as well. Those all
appear to be social settings.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s — that’s my
memory. They were social settings. I don’t know Epstein’s — if he had — whatever the nature of the President’s friendship, if you will, or however you want to define that with Epstein, I was — never witnessed. I think they were friendly like people are in social settings. I don’t — I don’t think they were close friends or I certainly never witnessed the President in any of — I don’t recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance. I actually never saw the President in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the President in any inappropriate setting in any way. The President was never inappropriate with anybody. In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman in all respects.
TODD BLANCHE: When’s the last time you
think you saw, in person, President Trump?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Um, it was — it’s —
it’s been a long time. Probably not — sometime in the — beginning — mid — mid 2000s maybe. And it would only have been a social setting, as far as I recall.
TODD BLANCHE: And did you ever hear
Mr. Epstein or anybody say that President Trump had done anything inappropriate with masseuses or with anybody in your world?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely never, in
any context.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
masseuses from Mar-a-Lago’s spa ended up giving massages to — private massages to Mr. Epstein? I’m not asking for what you may have read, but from — at the time, from your personal knowledge, do you know whether that’s true?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — I don’t — I
don’t recall. Is it possible? Yes. But I don’t remember — I don’t remember that. So I don’t want to — I don’t recall that, but it’s possible.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you have a recollection
of you ever recruiting a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago spa to give — to go give a private massage to Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’ve never recruited a
masseuse from Mar-a-Lago for that, as far as I remember. I can’t ever recollect doing that.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So what — what I
think we should do now, it’s about 12:15. We’ll take a — we’ll take a break and we will come back in a little bit.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
(Break at 12:15 p.m. to 12:59 p.m.)
SPENCER HORN: Good afternoon. We are
continuing the recorded proffer interview of Ms. Maxwell. The time is 12:59, Thursday, July 24th.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So just to continue
what we’re talking about, Ms. Maxwell, still focused on the ’90s time period with — understanding that could spill over in the early 2000s. But still that part of your — of your life with Mr. Epstein. There’s been public reporting about conduct by Mr. Epstein and others at Little Saint James.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: So can you talk about the
frequency with which you went there, and address some of those — some of the reporting, namely around young masseuses or young women who would be present and what you observed —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — relating to them, and
then I’ll ask questions around that.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So if I’m right, he
purchased the island in 1996 and he was friendly with the owners. And originally, we went to the island as guests of the owners. And then I guess at some point the owners told him — he — they wanted to sell and he decided to purchase it. So the island was very rustic. I loved it. He, of course, had completely different ideas. And I would say there was none of what you were describing at that early period of time. So the frequency was — was often. We’re often on the island, because he loved it. He really, really loved it. And we would, — we would go all the time. Mostly all the early phase was based on improvements that could be made on the island. Always going with new architects, new designers, new construction people. I’d say the first two years, almost every trip, not every one, but almost every trip contained some — an individual who would be brought on board to have an opinion as to how to — I don’t want to use the word “improve the island,” because I don’t think you could improve it, but to — I can’t think what the word would be. To — what’s the word I’m looking for? To develop it. Sorry. That’s the word.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Develop — develop the
island. That’s the word I’m looking for. So — so there were trips, constant trips with that in mind. And I would say now if we are moving to the late ’90s, ’96, ’97 I definitely witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein’s behavior, and a modification, if you will. Where in the past, in the early ’90s, I don’t remember traveling so much with other people. There would be a masseuse or a yoga person, but now he started to travel with more, always a masseuse. Whereas in the past it wasn’t always a masseuse or always an instructor. There was now starting to be always an individual or a friend or whatever. There’s always a, like, maybe the word would be entourage, but these were always people in their 20s, late 20s, early 30s in my — as my memory sees it, as I — as I observe that time. And he tasked me with finding a local masseuse for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes, even though I say he would always travel with an entourage, sometimes he didn’t, and he wanted to have a massage locally. So I visited the mass- — the spas that were local in St. Thomas and in St. John. And if I met someone, a man or a woman, actually, because it was difficult to find somebody in St. Thomas, it’s not exactly, you know. So, and I did find a couple of people who would come. So that’s how they came, because also it was a schlep. So if you had somebody who came, it would be — you would have to, you know, boat ride and you — several hours. It wasn’t just a — it’s not like arriving with your massage table and stuff. So there was that. So I did do that.
TODD BLANCHE: So did, over the years,
males also give massages to Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I did say, I
don’t think — at the beginning, definitely. And I would say towards sort of, again, late ’90s, I don’t remember any men. They were at the beginning, I think in that — towards the late ’90s, I cannot think of any men. I only think of women.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you — well, you talk
about entourage flying, right now we’re talking about to the island. Did you observe any sexual, I was going to say misconduct, but any sexual — any sex at all whatsoever on the plane?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never on the plane,
no.
TODD BLANCHE: Was there a part of the
plane that was closed off from others where Mr. Epstein could go and get a massage or whatever?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. Okay. So
that’s a good question. So there were two planes. So you had the — there was a Gulfstream, and that’s open plan. So anything — I mean, there was a sofa that turned into a bed. And he did sleep on that. And then — but in the Boeing, which he flew on a lot, there was — his area could be closed off with a door. And behind that door there would be — there was a bedroom and an office. So if that door was shut, you wouldn’t see it.
TODD BLANCHE: But do you — so if you
never — so — but you never observed Mr. Epstein engaging in sex or getting a massage with somebody — with whether the masseuse was not clothed on the plane?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can’t say that. I
might have —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — I definitely might,
either both in the Gulfstream or in the —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — in the — I’m sure
I did, but it’s not — I can’t —
TODD BLANCHE: That’s fair.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I’m absolutely
sure I did. I must have, because, you know, he was so obsessed of someone rubbing his feet or — just — when you ask me about massages, I want to be clear. I generally — what I think of that is somebody on a massage table, but other people might think of it as something different. You know, you could have someone rubbing his feet or his shoulder. I saw that all the time. That I did. But sep- — that’s separate from being on a massage table.
TODD BLANCHE: How — again, I know we’re
talking about a decade-long period, but during the period we’re talking about, in a seven-day week, how often would Mr. Epstein get a massage?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In the ’90s, when
we’re talking, he would get one every day. I think, as that time progressed, he would get one, maybe twice a day. I do want to say that there was maybe a reason that things altered or morphed or progressed, and it is maybe part of the reason, also, that I — he and I, our relationship or have a, somebody wants to call it altered. And he started doing testosterone and that altered his character. And I believe that started in the late ’90s. And I believe that the FBI has his medical records and you may see that on his medical records. Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: So you believe that he
started taking testosterone in the ’90s, and when you say that altered his behavior, you’re saying it wanted to — made him get more massages or that was just one part of what changed about him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he became more
aggressive.
TODD BLANCHE: I see.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I think that he
maybe — well, now I’m just imagining that the testosterone altered his desires or something, does that —
TODD BLANCHE: And so when, given what
you’ve said the past couple hours about his kind of progression or change, let’s focus on that time period, so the more towards the late ’90s.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The testosterone.
Yeah, okay.
TODD BLANCHE: So ’96, ’97, ’98, you know,
toward —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
TODD BLANCHE: — when you’ve said that he
changed. Did you know flat out that he was having sex or otherwise some sort of sexual conduct with masseuses regularly?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Flat out? No, I
denied that. I couldn’t imagine that he would but I think looking back now, that — I did not. But I started to suspect that he was not faithful. Seems ludicrous but that’s what I thought.
TODD BLANCHE: But if — look, if — if
he’s flying from Palm Beach to — to St. Thomas or if he’s flying all over the country to New Mexico or to New York, or even in Palm Beach and there’s young women, putting aside whether they’re under the age of or in their 20s, every day at the house, multiple masseuses — multiple massages on some days, you’re interacting with the masseuses constantly.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Huh?
TODD BLANCHE: Or maybe that’s not right.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s not right.
TODD BLANCHE: Let me take back what I
just said. Ignore that part.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: But you understand that he
is getting massages every day, sometimes multiple times a day. The — by the late ’90s, it’s all women, presumably they’re — some of them are new, but they’re also repeat masseuses. What did you — I mean, you had to know at that point that there was something going on beyond just, he really needed to get massaged.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So — very fair
question. There’s two things. The first is the person that he saw the most at that period of time was in her 40s.
TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And she was with him
all the time. And I’m, like, married as well —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And as — I’m square.
And it never occurred — well, I don’t believe it occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he would be having relations. And he was with her — that was the person he had the most massages, yoga, and that — with — at that time in the ’90s period. The second thing is that — is he told me he didn’t — he had difficulty having an erection, and I believed him.
TODD BLANCHE: When you said he said that,
you mean he regularly told you that? Like he —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: When I first —
because when I didn’t have sex with him after the first time, and it took — so I asked him, was it me? And he told me it was him. And I had never, up until this moment in my life, I — as if I’m not stupid. I’m very bright. I’ve had an excellent education. I traveled all over the world. I had had boyfriends, but I had never met or understood that somebody could be so — would lie to me about — I could — it never occurred to me. I didn’t have a frame of context within my life experience where somebody would be so manipulative and devious with me. I just — and plus, I just didn’t have — I just — and I was happy not to have sex, because I have a condition that doesn’t lend itself to that.
TODD BLANCHE: Does — when you learned —
so fast forward just for a moment to the 2007, ’08, ’09 time period and he’s arrested and charged and there’s all kinds of press around his purported contact, at that point — at that point, did you accept that that was true? Meaning, did it make sense at that point? When you were reading about women who claimed that they had been abused, even underage and — at that point, did you think to yourself, well, geez, that makes sense now that I think about it or no?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: First of all, I
didn’t — that’s — I only read what was in the newspapers. I didn’t have any other thing. And I’m embarrassed to say it, I didn’t — I didn’t believe it.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Right. I mean, you
didn’t believe that the accusations were true at the time.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. So let’s —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And sorry, I need to
say, even if they were true, I believe that he was duped and he didn’t know that they were — whatever that was in the papers at that time, whether they said that they were 17 or, I didn’t — it didn’t register, because —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — along with all of
those — well, not in 2006, but later when the more salacious and other allegations came out, I knew were utterly false, which then just reinforced my belief that the rest was not true.
TODD BLANCHE: Let me ask you a question
about the age of the masseuses over the years. It — I think in my mind, there’s a difference between you knowing or not knowing that a masseuse is under the age of 18 and coming to give a massage, and you knowing that Mr. Epstein, you know, sexually abused the underage person or made her strip or something like that, meaning — and I want to understand whether you believe that nobody that came to give massages, none of the women were under 18 or that you didn’t focus on their age, but you — you were more focused on whether any underage woman was abused by him.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it’s better to
answer this question with corroborating evidence and then go back and explain, so that I frame —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — your understanding
of what I’m saying. Of the — my understanding is that in 2000 and, let’s say 2008, they had interviewed 44 women, let’s say, or around that number.
TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: You have to
understand, not a single one of those 44 women mentioned me in a single report. And it’s not because — go back. They didn’t mention me in their report because they never met me, they never saw me, and they never interacted with me. So to go back to your question, it’s not that I thought one way or another, it’s that I didn’t see them.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I see. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no, that’s helpful.
So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m not — and but
when I say not one, not single one of those reports talked about me. And I just want to clarify exactly, because I’m obviously aware that one of those girls is — was one of the witnesses in my trial, specifically . To use her own testimony so that you don’t DOJ REDACTION have to —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — hear my point of
view. It’s better if it comes from her own words and that way there’s no second-guessing whether — what I’m saying. herself said that recruited her, brought her and trained her. Those are own words. Where was I going with this?
TODD BLANCHE: That you were — that you
didn’t know. I mean, I assume you were saying that you weren’t —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh yeah, sorry, sorry,
sorry, sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. That’s okay —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m trying to remember
where I was.
TODD BLANCHE: — that’s all right. It’s
okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really do have some
slow cognition issues. The —
TODD BLANCHE: So she says — she
testifies that it was that recruited her DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION- and trained her and not you.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So wait. So then in
her first FBI meeting, she reports seeing a woman with short dark hair at the house, which then is used as evidence that that person was myself. But the maid, lady that who helped keep the house, John Alessi’s wife — oh, and with an accent, I believe she said. John Alessi’s wife had short, dark hair and an accent. I’m sorry, but I find — and you can ask yourselves this, I mean, I’ve obviously modified my accent. I’ve been in America a long time, but I’m British. I’ve been brought up with a very strong British accent. And I don’t believe there’s an American on planet Earth that doesn’t recognize this to be British or Australian, maybe, if you really don’t know. But it’s not some random accent. Now the Hispanic, maybe. Okay. That was John’s wife that she saw, not me. And I’d like to point out further how you — potentially her own — through her own words. She identify —
DAVID MARKUS: Why don’t we — why don’t
we —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
DAVID MARKUS: — stop there and let him
ask the next question.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: You’re good.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: So it’s — so just — and
look, I want to — I want to try to — I think probably tomorrow we will — I want to talk more about kind of the evidence against you and how to address that. So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: No, don’t apologize.
That’s — so that’s helpful but —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: — I don’t want you to be
burdened. I want you to just tell the truth the best you can, so I don’t want you to be burdened by what people said at trial or what you know the press says about you, so —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just thought it was
illustrative when you asked the question —
TODD BLANCHE: And it was. It was.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — because it
doesn’t — I did not — I absolutely have no memory at any — now I’m leaving separate DOJ REDACTION to this obviously —
TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — so that’s a
separate story. I’m not going to pretend — well, we’ll come to her.
TODD BLANCHE: We’ll get to her. Go
ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, she — but in the
terms of the scheme or whatever, however you want to determine what you’re calling that, I have no — no memory, no active anything of having seen anybody that resembles a young — a child, let’s call it what it is, at that house giving him a massage at all. It’s not even like I did this. It’s an at all. And 44 people didn’t see me or talk about me either, including .
TODD BLANCHE: Did — and when you say
“that house,” I —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
Palm Beach.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no, I understand what
you mean but, and I — does the same memory or lack thereof, apply to on planes, at — in New Mexico, in New York, in —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, with some other
DOJ REDACTION- important caveats. Well, on that — but Julian — Jane, in my trial, was clearly underage, clearly a child. And I only saw her in Palm Beach and I only saw her with her mother. The other person who’s clearly also not an adult or even close, , I believe, I remember her now. That would be the only two or three, whatever that is.
TODD BLANCHE: So did you ever know
Mr. Epstein to communicate with FBI agents, either like intelligence FBI agents, like as a source or just generally with FBI agents?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you think if he had done
that, you would’ve known, like he would’ve told you something like that? Like if I said to you, Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI, would you say, that’s crazy, no, he wasn’t or maybe he was, I would — he wouldn’t have told me that anyway.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have two answers for
that. I think if he was for real, I think he would’ve bragged about it to me as a show off, because he could be a show off. And if he wasn’t, he might have dropped it like he was cool. And I don’t think — I don’t remember him doing either. DOJ REDACTION Now, with, again, the caveat that in his — before I met him finding money, I think he may have suggested that there was some people who helped him, but that’s the only context that I recall that in.
TODD BLANCHE: What do you mean by that?
When you said “finding money,” what do you mean?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, his business
where he — remember I told you —
TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — I think in that
context, he made — he showed me a photograph that he had with some African warlords or something that he told me. And, you know, I get — I don’t remember if I — that’s what I interpreted the — like that kind of thing or whether it was something like that. That’s the only actual active memory I have of something nefarious — not nefarious. I don’t even know if it was nefarious, but covert, I suppose would be the word.
TODD BLANCHE: And what about any other
intelligence agency, like the CIA or Defense Intelligence or any other law enforcement agency?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I don’t think
so. I think that — I don’t remember anything like that. I just don’t think he had the wherewithal and I think that whole aspect of that is — can I use a bad word?
DAVID MARKUS: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Bullshit.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And what do you —
you think it’s bullshit, meaning? What do you mean?
DAVID MARKUS: Would you have known if he
was — would he have been bragging to you? Would he have been saying these things.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he was because
I — I think, well, sorry. I think that — I think one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my, you know, my family connections and why he liked other people was because they were cool or whatever. And I think that, certainly, early in when I met him, he would’ve tried to impress me or tried to show off, if you will. Like he was that guy, you know, and he wasn’t that guy. And so — and I think that he would’ve tried to bullshit me and he didn’t, so I think it’s —
TODD BLANCHE: Did —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he may have
tried to bullshit me, but no, I couldn’t.
TODD BLANCHE: Right.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: So I want to just shift for
a few minutes to talk about post-2000. 2000 to kind of when your relationship changed over the years with him. Did there come a time when he, Mr. Epstein, did meet members of the Royal Family?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: When was that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I need to go back,
because I think I may have misspoke —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — I didn’t misspeak
but I —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — it’s something that
I have forgotten.
TODD BLANCHE: Of course. Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Before I met Epstein,
he lived in London for a period of time, I don’t know for how long. And he met and knew some truly fancy people, like people — high society people, that included Princess Diana’s best friend. Her name was Rosa Monckton. And Rosa’s husband, Dominic Lawson, who’s a famous journalist, actually is a very well known journalist. And when I — and he had — he was friends with the Barings, Barings Bank and he had like, sort of —
TODD BLANCHE: That was, you’re talking
about —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Before he met me.
TODD BLANCHE: Before, so in the —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: ’80s.
TODD BLANCHE: — ’80s. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. He was dating
Eva Andersson, Miss Sweden, I think. I don’t know when she became Miss Sweden.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So earlier when you
said that he met them later —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — you think he may have
met some members of the Royal Family or certainly British high society.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He met — I don’t know
about the Royal Family, but certainly high society.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And the reason why I
know this is because, sometime we can — this is a documentable thing. Docu — whatever. There’s a photograph that can give you the date, because I don’t remember what the date is of this, so there’s something that will peg whatever this date is. I don’t remember when that is. Epstein went to London without me. He often went everywhere without me, but he was in London without me, which was decently unusual because London’s my hometown. But anyway, he went without me. And he went to a big event in, I think it was in the — anyway, it was a big event. It’s on — it’s on — it’s on — it’s on the news. It’s like a — there’s photographs of it. And he, I don’t know if he sat with Diana or he met Diana and he’d already met her. I don’t know, but this, I believe was organized by Rosa. And so there’s — I don’t know if she was being set up as a date for him, maybe because she — I don’t want to speak bad of Diana, but — I’m not going to do that.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So that was
pre-meeting you.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, that was — that
event happened when we were —
TODD BLANCHE: Oh, okay. That was
(Inaudible).
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — and I would —
sometime —
TODD BLANCHE: Understood.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: – – no, it’s when we
were —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — I’m not going to
say together, but when — how about this? When I was his employee, that’s a bit better.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So now moving back
to the 2000s, did there come a time when Mr. Epstein met Prince Andrew?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: And others in the
Royal Family or just Prince Andrew as, far as you know?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so as — as much
as I can piece it together, all right, first of all let’s just state, I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew. I did not introduce him to Prince Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson. That is a flat untruth. I’ll start with that. So now I’m going to tell you how he did actually meet him. So I — if you find me that photograph, I can date that time when he met Princess Diana at that event. I — and based on that, I’ll be able to tell you if it’s pre or post that event, because I haven’t looked it up and I’ve never bothered to check. So Lynn Forester, who was a client or some type of client, or I think she actually tried to date him or might have dated him, for the record. She was in — do you want to ask me something?
TODD BLANCHE: No, go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. She was — she
had a house or she rented a house in the Vineyard. I think it was in the Vineyard or Nantucket, I can’t remember now which one it was. It was one of those. It was either in Nantucket or the Vineyard, and invited Epstein to go, and I believe that’s when he met Prince Andrew. However, I believe that before that event, he had gone to the Bahamas and had hung out with Sarah Ferguson. And Sarah had called Epstein and had arranged with Lynn, or I don’t know. I don’t know. Now I’m speculating. Anyway, long and short, he met Andrew up there.
TODD BLANCHE: And I’m not holding you to
an exact date, but when, approximately, was that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, we can date it
from that picture, if you find me the picture.
TODD BLANCHE: But do you know, I —
without looking at a photo, in your mind, approximately, when was that.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say it was
the 2000 — no, probably 2001, 2002.
TODD BLANCHE: Early 2000s?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: And I think it was actually
Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met Jeffrey Epstein through you.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think that’s true.
So — well —
LEAH SAFFIAN: It’s true that Andrew said
that.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, no, I’m sure
it’s true, because I — I’m English and my close friends are all close friends with Sarah and Andrew. And I would not say that I was close friends with Andrew before, but certainly we were friendly and certainly his best friends, some of them, are very close with me. And I think that my friendship, my — me being present or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey more, like, trust him or I think that’s the idea.
TODD BLANCHE: So you don’t dispute that
you’re — that you kind of had a role in them getting together. You’re just saying you didn’t say, Prince, here’s Jeffrey.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would never have
introduced them. It would never have occurred to me to introduce them. I couldn’t imagine them being friends. Two chalk and cheeses would never — I mean, for real, there’s nothing there to connect them. So he met Prince Andrew and then he had a really good relationship. I don’t like that word. It sounds clunky. They had a friend —
DAVID MARKUS: Acquaintanceship.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. And —
through Sarah, actually. I think Sarah is the one that pushed that. And they met and hung out, I want to say two or three times that had nothing to do with me. I wasn’t communicating with Andrew, I wasn’t in touch with him. And I know this because I was annoyed and I felt left out, and I felt disrespected and I was like, this is weird. I couldn’t even imagine Epstein and Andrew together. And I thought that Sarah was trying to put the moves on Jeffrey, if I’m being honest, and I thought the whole thing was annoying and I was pissed off.
TODD BLANCHE: So what happened with their
relationship? Putting aside the publicity around Prince Andrew’s purported relationship with , what happened, as far as you know, with Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein’s relationship, from the times you just described or you give me —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So after that,
at some point Jeffrey told me — Epstein told me that Andrew was coming to New York and I needed to organize the whole thing. That’s classic by the way, classic Epstein. Of course, if someone — I’m like, all right, fine, whatever. And because he wanted to make sure that Andrew was taken care of and that he was comfortable, he had whatever he needed, yada, yada, yada. And I’m like, well, am I going to meet him or are you just going to have me do all the job? And he said, well, you know, you can come and say hello. Like, wow. Well, that’s so nice of you, for real. Because you have to understand, like, I DOJ REDACTION don’t know if I told you this before, but I did not have the keys to his — I was not allowed to go to his house, unless I was summoned or told. I was not allowed to answer his phones. We can go there, but anyway. So this — you can tell there’s a bit of a sore point, perhaps. Anyway, so Andrew came, and of course the minute we got together I was like, yay. Hi. And then it was so nice, because the difference of being in England with Prince Andrew versus being in New York without all the bullshit was insane. And our friendship just like lit up like this, because first of all, he knew that I’m safe. I mean safe as in I’m not, yeah, you know, Nigel Dempster or taking a picture. I mean, not in a million years would I do something so gross. And we honestly got on like a house on fire. I really liked him a lot and he’s — it was so nice and we just became really, really good friends, much more so than when we were in London, if I’m honest.
TODD BLANCHE: And then with respect to
and Prince Andrew, what do you know about that relationship?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Would you like to ask
DOJ REDACTION that again? Relationship is a big word. Like I said, I don’t like the word. Let’s just start there. Okay. So I have read — I just want to like piece together.
TODD BLANCHE: Well, but don’t say —
before you say what you read, because that’s one of the problems is that we’re all kind of —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. What, I
know —
TODD BLANCHE: — we’re all formed by like
all the publicity and information around what everybody else has said, but like, what do you —
DAVID MARKUS: Know.
TODD BLANCHE: — what do you think or
what did you see? What did you hear?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What’s an even bigger
word than bullshit?
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Why? Well, go ahead
just — but finish that thought. Why do you think that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m going to tell you
right now. I’m so happy to tell you. I’m like excited. I’m beyond excited. Okay. So there’s been a mixture of what I’ve actually seen and know from the evidence and versus what I’ve put together. Impossible for me at this point to separate everything, but I’ll tell you what I know versus what I saw and what I physically have in here, but it’s helpful for you to know. So the allegation, I have to go with the allegation. The allegation was that at my house in London, in March, whatever that was, 2001 I believe, we went to London, especially so that could have a — or could have a relationship with Prince Andrew and she was paid a vast amount of money for that purpose. Okay. And that she then got in the — in my bathroom in my house in London and had sex, sexual relations with him and then went into my guest room and had full blown sex and then left my house, or he left, and she felt used and disgusting. And a photograph was taken of them just before all these events took place in my study. That is what is the story. Oh, and then after that she met him several other times. But we’ll come to that. We’ll come — this is where it will — allegedly started.
LEAH SAFFIAN: And they went to Tramp.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, right. We went to
DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION- nightclub that night. Oh, we went to dinner, right? We went to dinner and then to Tramp. Okay. So the first thing about that weekend, that specific weekend, was it’s my mum’s 80th birthday and I was in the country. And I have some corroborating evidence for that and a lot of testimonial that you can check. So that takes care of the reason why I — one of the reasons why her story doesn’t hold water. The second reason why — so — by the way, when I say that, my mum turned 80th, that actual weekend was, her birthday is on March the 11th. And the reason why I went to London, and I presume, but I — this I don’t remember, is why when we were — so the whole trip started because of Alberto Pinto, who is the decorator for the island and for — and for New York as well. And he had wanted Epstein to go to see a house in Marrakesh, if I remember rightly, and went via the Alhambra, it was also for New Mexico. So there’s architectural pieces that — paint. And that was the basis of that trip. And I suspect now, that that trip was planned all around the fact that I had to be in — wanted to be in — was going to be in London no matter what for my mum’s 80th birthday at my brother’s house in the country, which is approximately an hour outside of London, an hour and a half —
LEAH SAFFIAN: An hour and a half.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — an hour and a half
outside of London, in my brother’s home. And we all congregated on the Saturday for her birthday celebration on the Sunday, and then we left. So that’s that. The second reason why — probably maybe even the more important reason than my mum’s birthday, that I think it’s absolute rubbish, is that Prince Andrew. The idea of him doing anything of that nature in my house, that’s the size of this room, is so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me, as the man or what — I just can’t — I can’t even — I — no.
DAVID MARKUS: Is there any way that it
could have happened?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
LEAH SAFFIAN: Describe the physical plan.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, the physical — so
the — my house was tiny. I think it’s 900 square feet in total. Well, maybe that; is that right? Maybe nine —
LEAH SAFFIAN: Yes.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It is on three floors,
however. So you’re talking about a little — it’s a jewel. It used to be a stable for a horse. It was the stables for the big house. It was a little poor man’s home behind the rich man’s home. It’s a jewel. It’s a — was a gorgeous little place, but it is the size of a nut. If you make a noise, let’s say, a little burp or something you don’t want to — you’d hear it. It just — Where she says that they had relations in a bathroom, I — first of all, the bath is an old Victorian bath. I could — I’m quite — quite small, it’s tight for me. I put my brother in there to see what would happen. And it looks like a blivet, which is a sausage in like a very tight skin. So her description of whatever the two people were doing in the tub, that wouldn’t work. The bathroom itself is so small, you can’t lie flat on the floor. So it couldn’t happen on the floor, because you physically, physically can’t. This bathroom is too small to even be on the floor. And then the kicker of all kickers, is that because the bathroom was so small, I decorated it to try make it look huge, which meant that I put mirrors the whole way around it. And what was so fun about being in there is that if you stood in the bathroom, you saw like a hundred of you, like you do if you were in —
DAVID MARKUS: A fun house.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, well, Alice in
Wonderland or one of those things that you would see yourself going, stretching everything. And the image. If you said you were — let’s say you were, let’s say that was telling the truth. She could say she was having sex with ,000 generations of the Royal Family, because that’s how far back you could see yourself. There is no way in God’s green earth if that had taken place, that this is something that you would miss, because it’s — you couldn’t miss it. If you were standing there, you’d see the whole — the FBI, the whole Department of Justice standing behind you. It’s like, no.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you —
LEAH SAFFIAN: And also — let me just —
also explain where the tap was in the bathtub.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well it’s an old
DOJ REDACTION- Vic- had a tap. So if you were in — if you were in the top, right, it might — this is the tub. My tap would be here, I think — no.
TODD BLANCHE: So you think it’s kind of
logistically and physically not something that could have happened.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, there’s that.
And there’s just — Andrew would — he’s so English. He’s so — he had a tie on.
DAVID MARKUS: Do you think there’s any
way it could have happened or no?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely on — no
way — no how, absolutely not. Wait, I haven’t finished. So on her —
TODD BLANCHE: Go —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
DAVID MARKUS: No, go ahead. Go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. Go, go, go.
Finish. Please, go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. Can I finish?
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. When all this
nonsense took place, where this whole story with the picture and the this and the that and this bullshit, I believe that this whole thing was manufactured, and I can point you to some potentially corroborating evidence of this. So when she gave the photograph to the FBI in Australia —
DIEGO PESTANA: Just to be clear, the
photo, you’re talking about, you’re talking about the famous one where —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I have a image
of it here. Who wants to look at it?
DIEGO PESTANA: — where Prince Andrew is
holding and you’re in the background?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The fake, just to be
clear. So on the back of that, and this is in the discovery by the way. I don’t know if it’s in — I don’t know where, which discovery I saw it in now. But this — she wrote, she, , wrote in the back that it was a picture that was taken in January of 2000 and — on 2000 or 2001, I don’t remember.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So now in her
handwriting, that she’s giving the FBI this picture, suddenly now it’s March. So how do you go from her writing it’s January to March. It’s because it DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION only — it’s the only one that fit with the flight logs, that when she could be in London and this took place. The second thing is that — oh, I’m so excited to tell you this. There is a journalist, I know you guys are quite — well, I don’t know. The fake news is at work here. So there’s a journalist called Sharon Churcher. There is a lawyer called Brad Edwards. These two — and there is a Southern District of Florida prosecutor called Villafana. I would very much look forward to showing you the relationship between these three parties that created that story.
TODD BLANCHE: Why? Well, without —
putting aside the relationship, why do you think they created that story?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe that story
was created for the purposes of — well, there are multiple. The first one is financial, the second one is for the purposes of the CVRA case. The third one was for the serialization, both of her book and in the papers, for the story to attack the Royal Family. And just as a —
TODD BLANCHE: So I think when — when you
were just asked about the photo, you said you actually thought the photo was fake. Do you think it was just misdated or do you think it’s a fake — literally a fake photo?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe it’s
literally a fake photo.
TODD BLANCHE: Why do you think that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, first of all, I
don’t remember it. We’ll start —
TODD BLANCHE: But you —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. Okay. But the
outfit I’m wearing —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — is the outfit from
my mum’s birthday party.
TODD BLANCHE: So but you don’t have
any — do you dispute that they’ve met each other?
DAVID MARKUS: Do you know whether they’ve
met each other?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not know that
they met.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So — so you not
only — so you think the photograph is fake, but you also are not even positive they actually ever met each other.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m not.
TODD BLANCHE: So you don’t have a
specific recollection of kind of being at an event or a party or your apartment, or you know, you’re flat in London with Prince Andrew and ?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not.
DAVID MARKUS: She doesn’t know one way or
the other.
TODD BLANCHE: Understand that.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m just — I want you
to know that —
TODD BLANCHE: No, I know.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — the reason why —
I’m not hesitant. I’m not — I don’t have any memory of that, so that — that’s not the issue. The issue is, could Andrew have come to the house to see me or see Epstein, and say hi and she had been there? Yes. I can’t say that that didn’t happen. But what I can absolutely, categorically say is that I never, at any time, set Andrew up to have relations with her or any other human being ever. And I can categorically state that her — her characterization of whatever may or may not have happened, could — physically would just no. And DOJ REDACTION plus, I was in the country, so all of that’s just not conceivable.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you attend — did you
attend social parties over — and again, I really, now I’m focused on 2000 plus, so not — not the earlier, where Mr. Epstein would host a party or be a big part of the hosting of the party and some of, or many of the young women who were masseuses would be invited to the party, as guests or his entertainment?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I certainly went to
his house when he would have people who would be there that were — I call them — I would — the way I would think of it and I would characterize it, were his entourage. That’s how I thought about it. And that certainly was in the later 2000s, Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Did — did you attend any
weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein? Again, I’m mostly focused on post — plus — post 2000, but if there’s something that comes to mind in the ’90s, that’s fine as well.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A wedding?
TODD BLANCHE: Weddings.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With Epstein? I don’t
think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein. I can’t think of a wedding that I ever went to with him.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know — so you don’t
remember — you didn’t attend President Clinton’s daughter’s wedding —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
TODD BLANCHE: — Chelsea Clinton’s.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
TODD BLANCHE: But that wasn’t with
Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, it was with
Ted Waitt, my boyfriend.
TODD BLANCHE: Say it again.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With Ted Waitt, my
boyfriend.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you know whether
Mr. Epstein was at that wedding?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was not.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And how did you —
did you have a relationship — well, why did you get invited to that wedding?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because Ted and
Clinton were very close.
TODD BLANCHE: And why — how were you
close to them? Like what was the reason you were close to them?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met President
Clinton — well, I first of all, I went to the White House with Epstein once for, I think it was for a historical, like one of those benefits and I met the President then, but like a thousand other people shook his hand. Then after that, I had a very — a good friend of mine that was the mayor — known to be the Mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine, and Philip and the President were very good friends. And Philip was a very — and I were very good friends, and so I actually was introduced to the President post his coming out of the White House and became friendly with him, because of Philip Levine.
DAVID MARKUS: Because of what?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Philip Levine.
TODD BLANCHE: There’s some names that
have been publicly associated with Mr. Epstein that I just want to ask you if you know about: Piers Morgan?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Is friendly with who?
TODD BLANCHE: With Mr. Epstein.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no idea.
Never. I doubt it.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. There’s no trick
question. I’m not trying to —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Yeah.
TODD BLANCHE: — I’m not suggesting that
I know the answer to it. I’m generally just asking.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I would be
astonished. I can’t imagine they’d have anything in common either.
TODD BLANCHE: How about —
DIEGO PESTANA: Were you friends with
Piers Morgan?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’ve met him. I’ve
met him. I met him at an event in Manhattan. I can’t remember what — in more recently, so probably in 2012, ’13, something in that, and we had a very nice conversation. So I remember — I remember that. I remember thinking — I’d never — I don’t remember if I’d ever met him before, but I remember thinking how nice he was and I was surprised. So I liked him. What can I tell you? So that’s the only one — that’s the only memory I have of that. I’m not sure if that’s correct but that’s what I think.
TODD BLANCHE: I don’t have a correct or
incorrect answer. I just want you to tell the truth.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I just don’t know.
I just want to try and…
TODD BLANCHE: No, but I don’t — I want
you to believe me and — because I mean this. There is so much information in the public sphere —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I see. Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: — about you and
Mr. Epstein and others around, and some of it is definitely true and some of it is definitely false —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. All right. I
just — I guess that’s —
TODD BLANCHE: — so when I ask a question
—
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: — if I think that you’re
not being honest or that you’re missing something, I’m not going to — this isn’t got you.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: I’ll say that to you.
Did you ever meet JFK, Jr.?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m sorry?
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever meet JFK, Jr.?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: When was that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I will — I met him at
Andrew Cuomo’s wedding? No, Kerry — Kerry’s wedding. Kerry’s wedding. Who did Kerry marry? Andrew Cuomo. Yes. Sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Andrew Cuomo’s wedding
in —
TODD BLANCHE: So when would that have
been, approximately?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 1990.
TODD BLANCHE: So before —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: 1999. I don’t — I —
something like that.
TODD BLANCHE: But would that have been
before you met Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Or maybe — yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you have a — any sort
of professional or social relationship with John F. Kennedy, Jr.?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I fancied him.
TODD BLANCHE: You what?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought he was very
attractive.
TODD BLANCHE: Oh, you fancied him.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: Besides him — finding him
attractive and fancying him, did you have any sort of, you know, social relationship with him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, we knew each
other. I thought he was wonderful and fun and I enjoyed meeting him, but I — we went out — I want to say we had a dinner or two, but obviously I was very excited, but that was it.
TODD BLANCHE: And then Alan Dershowitz.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — what’s the
question with Alan?
TODD BLANCHE: Do you — say that again.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What’s the question?
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Mr. Dershowitz?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he knew
Mr. Epstein? Do you know the nature of their relationship?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I definitely do
know Alan. I want — I’m just trying to remember if I knew him — I am trying to remember how I met him.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — and if I met him
separate from — I don’t remember.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So that I have no
recollection. I remember — I know that he was Epstein’s lawyer. I don’t know if they had any relationship prior to that. I don’t remember. Oh, I do actually. Sorry. I think they met at the same Martha’s Vineyard through Lynn Forester. I think that’s what happened. I think that’s it.
TODD BLANCHE: And why do you think that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because it just popped
into my head.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And did you — did
you — you said that Mr. Dershowitz was Mr. Epstein’s attorney. Do you know whether they also socialized?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my personal memory
of when I remember two — I have two distinct memories with Alan. One is with him and his wife at the island, and I actually remember that. And I remember, I think, going to his house in Boston, if he had a house in Boston, that’s — it was only two times I remember.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
Mr. Dershowitz doing anything inappropriate with young women around Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever hear
anybody — did anybody ever tell you that he had done anything inappropriate?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever — did you —
do you know one way or the other, whether Mr. Dershowitz ever got a massage at the island or any of the locations that he was at with Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t remember
anything about him ever getting massaged. I don’t ever have any recoll- — I don’t believe I ever even saw him in a bathrobe. I have no knowledge of that.
TODD BLANCHE: I’m jumping around a little
bit. You mentioned, I think briefly the TerraMar Project.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: What is that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I founded TerraMar
in — well, the idea of TerraMar came, I think in . So I want to just explain TerraMar a little bit. So Ted and I bought a boat — well, Ted bought the boat. And its — basis of the boat was to do explorations and sea — sea exploratory stuff. This really started because I have, and have had since I was a child, a love of the ocean and everything aquatic. And I’ve always been, I just — I’m nervous about the state of the ocean. When Ted and I, we worked with National Geographic and we did exploratory work and the most exciting — we did many exciting things, but one of the most fabulous ones that we did was we looked for Amelia Earhart twice. I did two expeditions to look for Amelia Earhart, as an example of an — of a exploration that we did. And he had a foundation for the ocean and we worked with Nat Geo, we worked with Woods Hole. We did amazing things. We bought– he bought the Remus 6000, so when the plane went missing, the plane that went — was it Air France? From Brazil to Paris that went down, it was the Remus 6000 that found that plane. It’s one of those deep sea explorers. Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, I just — one of the things I did not want to give up was the — my love of the ocean and everything that we did and TerraMar, the genesis of TerraMar came from that. So TerraMar obviously means land, sea. And the story of the ocean is that earth really shouldn’t be called earth, it should be called ocean because three quarters is the ocean. So — and so I wanted to not clash with anything to do with Ted, because it was a bit awkward between us and I — so he took all the part of the ocean that was close to land, so within 200 miles. And so I decided I would focus on all the part of the ocean that was outside of national borders, TerraMar. And that’s how that — that’s the genesis of TerraMar. Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: So what was the time period
of that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That — I think after
I broke up with Ted, so 2010, ’11 is when it started. And then I ran it all the way up until whenever the Epstein drama struck and then I just shut it down. Not — I shut it down because I didn’t want what was happening to hurt any — the Smithsonian or Nat Geo or the — I just couldn’t let everything be hurt by what was happening to me.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Jean-Luc
Brunel?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him — so
when — I told you I was working for the European, for my dad —
TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — and I was in
charge.
TODD BLANCHE: So back in like ’90, early
’90s?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. And I was
running a magazine. One of the things in the magazine is fashion. And so I was going to some fashion shows and I was looking for fashion sponsorship. And in fact, when I came to America, one of the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron Perelman at Revlon, who was great. And I met Jean-Luc through just in Paris like that. But socially not …
TODD BLANCHE: Did Mr. Epstein know him as
well? Did you later learn whether they knew each other?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m not sure I — I
don’t — he would’ve — Epstein had his own fashion situation, so he would’ve — I don’t — he didn’t meet Jean-Luc through me.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe them
together over the years?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely. Yeah, I
saw them many times together.
TODD BLANCHE: Did — did he visit the
island?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Did he go to Palm —
meet — go to Palm Beach House?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, he went — yeah,
he went everywhere. I saw him in every place.
TODD BLANCHE: Did do you ever observe him
getting a massage or do you ever know whether they got a massage? Maybe you didn’t observe him personally? You don’t remember.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know. I mean,
I don’t — I never — I have no conscious memory of Jean-Luc. I would imagine that he did, but I never — I don’t see it.
TODD BLANCHE: How about Mr. Weinstein,
Harvey Weinstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What would you like to
know?
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him? Like,
I guess when I say “how do you know him,” is it a relationship you had kind of separate from Mr. Epstein or did you guys — did you meet him through Mr. Epstein or both?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wouldn’t say —
first of all, I wouldn’t say I had any type of relationship with Harvey Weinstein —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — in any context.
Socially, I would meet him because I would go to events that Harvey would be at and also his wife was English back then, Georgina. And I was, I mean, friendly also, would be a big word, more acquaintance. So we would see each other and I would go to Miramax events, be — there was a couple of people who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with, his primary producer whose name is Meryl Poster, who I was friendly with, and yeah.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
Mr. Epstein had his own relationship with Mr. Weinstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He did.
TODD BLANCHE: Did they socialize together
at the island or in Palm Beach, or in New Mexico?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw Harvey at
any of Epstein’s houses. So socialize — I don’t know that they were friends. I mean, I can’t see them together, either. I mean, literally. But I know that they certainly do that. I would imagine — and in fact, I think I have a memory, but I can’t — that when Harvey was trying to raise money for whatever his business was called, I can’t remember what his business was called. Maybe he went there, because Epstein was good at raising money. I just don’t know. But I never saw them. I don’t — I don’t recall seeing Harvey in any of the properties.
TODD BLANCHE: Let’s just go a few more
minutes and take a break, I know it’s after lunch. So do you — we talked several hours ago about your father and his business a little bit. After your father passed, do you know whether Mr. Epstein was involved in your family business, that you know of?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not, in any
respect. First of all, there was no family business left. Start with that problem. And the second one is, my family didn’t like him very much. And they were busy dealing with their own problems and there was no relationship whatsoever. Oh, I mean, he — my mum and he got along quite well. That was it. But that was — she’s an old lady and, you know, he was nice to her.
TODD BLANCHE: We’re repeat — we’re now
being a little repetitive, but you’re confident that before you met Mr. Epstein, he didn’t know your father, and so there’s no — he wouldn’t have done business with your father’s companies in the ’80s either.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not. I’m a
hundred percent sure of that. I never met him. I never saw him. I never heard his name. No. Nothing.
TODD BLANCHE: So there’s been a lot of
conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained, like, a list of people, like a book of famous people that he knew. Like a, it’s called a black book or a client list or a list. Did you know of the existence of any such list?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There is no list.
We’ll start with that. The genesis of that story, I can actually trace for you from its absolute inception, if that is what you’re interested in.
TODD BLANCHE: It is.
DAVID MARKUS: Well, first, you know, to
be short, there is no list, there’s no client list. Nothing like that.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, there is nothing
like that.
TODD BLANCHE: That you know of.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That I — obviously.
TODD BLANCHE: Right. Yeah. Okay. So
you say you think you know the genesis, so go ahead. Tell us.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’d like you to know
that I have brought some supporting corroborative evidence to —
TODD BLANCHE: Well, tell me what it is,
too, and then we’ll get the corroboration.
LEAH SAFFIAN: Well, why don’t you tell
him first.
DAVID MARKUS: Is this — is this — do
you want to take a break here because this is a long —
TODD BLANCHE: It’s a long story.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, this is long.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, let’s take a break.
SPENCER HORN: All right. The time is
:03 and we’re going to take a break right now. (Off the record at 2:03 p.m.)
SPENCER HORN: All right. We’re resuming
the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. It is 2:16 on Thursday, July 24th. And the recording device is now on.
TODD BLANCHE: So when we stopped to take
a break, we were talking about what has been publicly discussed as a black book or the Epstein list. And that’s where we are. So you said you think you might know or that you’re aware of kind of the origin of this narrative.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. I just want to
reiterate again, there is no list that I am aware of. I’ve never, at any time, at least during the period of time when I was —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — present.
The origin of this story, I believe, begins — or it has a beginning in 2009, and then it has a prequel but we have to start in 2009. In 2009, there is — Epstein is, I think, out of jail, and there are civil suits taking place. Many of these are coming out of a disgraced law firm, Rothstein Adler — Rothstein, Rosenfeldt & Adler. At that law firm is a lawyer who started there in April, May, 2009, called Brad Edwards. In , allegedly the FBI gets a call in October of from Brad Edwards, and he allegedly tells them that he has come across a piece of evidence that belongs to Epstein, that contains a list of all of his clients and victims, underage girls, massage therapists, and his — and the men who are having sex with them. And he becomes — he, Brad Edwards becomes a cooperating witness — cooperating —
LEAH SAFFIAN: Confidential.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — confidential
informant, sorry. Confidential informant for them. And in a sting operation obtains the list from a former butler of Epstein’s called Alfredo Rodriguez. And it becomes evidence in the civil suit. In the — Alfredo Rodriguez is subsequently prosecuted for having an AK-47 or something weird, some guns or something, and goes to trial. And there’s a criminal complaint that the FBI produced. And in that criminal complaint, it says that Brad Edwards became aware of the list, but — we’ll call it the list for the purposes of this. After Alfredo Rodriguez’s two depositions that are held in Epstein’s civil suit. It’s in the FBI’s affidavit that the evidence was collected, and Brad Edwards became aware of it after the second deposition. It’s in the criminal complaint. The truth is different from what’s in both the criminal complaint and in that FBI affidavit, and in Brad Edward’s own statements on the subject. The truth is that Alfredo Rodriguez was deposed twice, once in July and once in August. And in the July deposition, told Brad Edwards that he had handwritten notes or a journal, whatever, in the deposition. And Brad Edwards replies, well, we’re going to come back for a second deposition. And the second deposition takes place in August. What this means is that Brad Edwards had access to the list from sometime between July and August, until when he actually called the FBI in October. So we’re talking six months or so. Rothstein’s firm was raided a few days after the list went into the FBI’s hands, and, subsequently, Rothstein himself was prosecuted for RICO, and I believe went to jail for 50 years. As part of that RICO case, he admitted to, on the record, and was — I don’t know whether he was prosecuted for creating fake settlements and fake evidence in Epstein’s case. In 2009, simultaneously whilst this was going on, my boyfriend, Ted Waitt, was asked for $10 million to keep me out of any of Epstein’s civil suits. Up until then, I had not been in any of Epstein’s civil suits. In fact, I wasn’t even sure, save for the first time I was mentioned was by , I hadn’t been — I was basically nowhere. And then Ted was called for this $10 million and had been shown — his people had been shown evidence that included the list, the flight logs and various other pieces of evidence. Now, we’re going to the prequel part of this story, so then it can tie to how this starts. In 2007, Epstein signs the non-prosecution agreement. He then fights the prosecution agreement or debates it through the DOJ or whatever happened there, and is — goes to the court in 2008, when it’s accepted or whatever that is. Villafana was the lead prosecutor or the lead — yes, in that case. And she, I think, was not happy or with the outcome and utilized, at that time, Brad Edwards, to file the CVRA case. Now, what is — what I have managed to understand from this is, within the OPR itself, there DOJ REDACTION- is evidence. There it says that Brad Edwards was the only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to. So I just want to preface that. The reason why I know that she went behind Acosta’s back, and everything else to do this, is because Brad Edwards in a podcast made the revelation. What he says is that he’d never heard of the CVRA case before, and Villafana called him and told him to file it. The sole purpose of the CVRA was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement. So what I believe is that Villafana worked with Brad Edwards, who she had also been — he was the lawyer that she had selected as a pro bono lawyer for some of the victims. And he was also working for Rothstein’s firm, that was under RICO investigation for that entire time, creating fake evidence in Epstein’s case. And she had just filed hidden secret using Edwards to overturn the NPA by filing the — this CVRA case, that sole purpose was to overturn it. And so when he approached her with the list, this was part of the effort to utilize and find new evidence to support the overturning, either of the NPA and/or a new case against Epstein. Because Brad Edwards — or I don’t know it was Brad Edwards. Because Rothstein’s firm asked my then boyfriend for $10 million, to kick me out of suits that I had no knowledge of at that time whatsoever, I now know that the base of this story was a blackmail of a billionaire, because Ted Waitt was a multi-billionaire. He had everything. He was way, way more wealthy than Epstein, if anyone cares. And that is the reason why Ted and I broke up, was the basis of that.
TODD BLANCHE: So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that list was
created — so then the — the masseuses that were on that list, I have never heard of some of them. I — not even from the civil suits that had come up since I’ve seen it. And this is me now knowing what’s in the list today. And I believe that — oh, Alfredo Rodriguez, so there’s a metamorphosis of this list. So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes, that’s in the documents contemporaneously, is that it’s pieces of paper that Alfredo has. It then morphs into something that Alfredo took a book, that Alfredo took from Epstein’s computer, but there’s no computer I know. Certainly not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken, that came out as a book. And then it morphed into, at the civil time — my civil case, into a book that was taken from my computer. And then it morphed into the Southern District of New York as a combination list of mine and Epstein’s. That is a metamorphosis through documents that you can trace.
TODD BLANCHE: So the — in your mind, or
from what you just described, there is a list, it’s just manufactured. Meaning, have you seen the list, even fake? Like do you know —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I haven’t seen it, but
what I —
TODD BLANCHE: So just — I was confused
—
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I guess my thing is
that what Brad Edwards says in all of these things is — in the paperwork and whatnot. And in — so all this story is basically controlled by five people. There’s four alleged victims that speak about the list and the blackmail and the men and the sex and whatnot — And the lawyers and now the prosecutors, sorry. The Southern District of New York for sure. But no one else. None of these stories carry from any of the 44, alleged, original victims. They never ever say that they were farmed out to anybody.
TODD BLANCHE: But the list itself —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — where is it?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There is no list, but
Brad Edwards said that he created the list.
TODD BLANCHE: So that’s what I was a
little confused about.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. He created a
list. He — so in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez produced, that became evidence, Exhibit 52 in my trial, has markings all over it. Circles and dots and whatnot.
TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And Brad Edwards says
that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of all the people who were involved. It includes Alan Dershowitz, for the record, who’s marked. I don’t remember what it does with Donald Trump. I don’t — I don’t know. You’d have to look. I don’t have it. But I believe —
TODD BLANCHE: I see.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what he did, he
marked up — I don’t know who. Somebody marked up that book of names, and I think all the names of the people that they went for were originally selected between two sources. One was this alleged book of names, and one was also from the telephone logs that were collected from the house in Palm Beach. And just to finish it off, there is a note — I have some papers for you if you wanted them, where Brad Edwards says that he has a list of men that he got money off —
TODD BLANCHE: So — okay. So the list
that everybody, the black book, the list, what you’re saying is that your — your Exhibit 52 from your trial, which is like a — more of an address book, a Rolodex type thing, that Mr. Rodriguez — Alfredo Rodriguez, your understanding, is that somewhere along the way he went through and kind of marked that list to say —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know where
that book actually comes from.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know what that
book is. That book is some type of a compilation, but what it is, is it’s just pieces of paper with type. So if you had — you could have made a list. I could put —
TODD BLANCHE: But you’re referring to
something that’s been public for a long, if we’re thinking about the same thing. You’re talking about the — you’re right, it’s like a bunch of different types of paper or whatever. I only have a copy of it, but with big parts of it redacted publicly, because there was people’s addresses and whatnot on it.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. That’s what I’m
talking about.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it — oh, perfect.
Yes. So you will find —
TODD BLANCHE: We’re looking at Exhibit 52
now.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So you’re
looking at Exhibit 52. So the one they produced, they, the Southern District of New York actually produced a book for me to see it as evidence, the actual thing it was. And I — it has marks, it has tabs, it has things, it has names I’ve never seen. It had — like that list — those — that list was basically the names that they choose to produce at trial. Now, in Rothstein Adler’s firm, I also have some documents where Rothstein — his original scheme, Rothstein Adler, was to place prostitutes. He had a bar, a dance bar where he had girls. And I believe he would use them and put them as fake secretaries in people’s offices, and then she might touch him or he might touch her or something, and boom, he got $25,000 for that. And those girls –now, I’m not saying that those are the girls that came in Epstein’s case necessarily, but the —
TODD BLANCHE: So — but again, let’s —
like, so we’re separating the evidence that came in at your trial and what you just talked about with Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez. During the time that you were with Mr. Epstein, and even in the 2000s when you were around less frequently, you never observed or you never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of individuals who, you know, linked to certain masseuses or —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely no.
TODD BLANCHE: — anything like that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely no. There
is no list. There is no — I’m not aware of any blackmail. I never heard that. I never saw it and I never imagined it.
TODD BLANCHE: While we’re on this topic,
just — and again, I know we’re jumping around and we’ve been going on it for a while, so I apologize. But there’s recently been reports about a birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein, I think, for his 50th birthday in 2003.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s true.
TODD BLANCHE: What do you know about
that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So, my mum did a
birthday book for my father at his 60th. And when I — Epstein would talk about his 50th, he said, I don’t know what I’m going to do. And I said, well, these are nice things, my mom did this book for my dad. He said, I love that idea. He said, can you help coordinate it? And he organized who — he called a lot of the people himself. I coordinated the putting together of the book. And some — in some instances, I called people that asked them to contribute —
TODD BLANCHE: And what was in the book?
Like what was the ask of the people you called?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It’s his 50th
birthday, say anything you want on a piece of paper.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, nothing more
than that.
TODD BLANCHE: Right. I mean, it was an
obvious question. But you basically — his folks were invited to send something to you to celebrate his birthday.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. To say happy
birthday with like, have a wonderful day or something else. There was no — there was no ask, but I wasn’t responsible for everybody in that book. And there were people that he would ask himself to contribute.
TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember some —
do you remember specific names of individuals who did send letters or who did contribute?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It’s been so long. I
want to tell you, but I don’t remember.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I honestly don’t
remember.
TODD BLANCHE: The article talks about
several names, but including the folks — the article, which is on Donald Trump. Do you remember President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a note?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you think the
articles — well, do you remember seeing that book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What do you remember
seeing?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I remember there
was — there were some portions of that book. But what surprised me — yeah. What surprised me was how few there were, because I thought if you had those, where are the rest? There was none of Mr. Trump.
TODD BLANCHE: In your discovery?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, in my discovery,
sorry. President Trump, there was nothing from President Trump.
TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember — but
separate and apart from your discovery, do you remember one way or the other whether President Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not remember.
TODD BLANCHE: And the article that
references the letter talks about like a — sounds like either a naked — a picture of a naked woman or something like that. Do you have any recollection of that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not. But just —
no, I don’t.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember — so what
do you remember seeing from your discovery around the book? Like you said, portions of it or some of the pages. What do you remember.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I remember there were
maybe — so I just want to say about the discovery that I had about — maybe this is an exaggeration, I’m not sure, but in my mind it’s about close to 5 million page — 5 million documents. It was a lot. And of that giant document dump that I received, I was only — maybe as much as 30 to 35 percent, I was never able to access. And this is documented on — at the court. And so I cannot say that I saw everything, because I didn’t.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just want you to
know that. And I think that that was by design.
TODD BLANCHE: But you — but you do
remember —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do remember some
pages.
TODD BLANCHE: — seeing some pages of the
book?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do, yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you remember what
pages you saw? Like from — it was from — who had written those letters or no?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really don’t
remember. I’m sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. It’s okay. Did you
— did you and/or — so the same questions we’ve asked about some other individuals. Did you have — did you meet Bill Gates over the years?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Because of your
relationship with Mr. Epstein or separate?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That one — well, I
met Mr. Gates — I went to the TED conference. I gave — I went to the TED conference and I actually spoke at the TED Conference, not the main stage, the substage. And I also gave several TEDx’s. But — and I met him there, but we were friendly and I actually did meet him, because I knew his — I don’t know if he was chief of staff or whoever, Boris. And I met him, I think, once. I may have met him actually at 71st Street. I may have once. I don’t remember if I met him there or at a restaurant, I don’t remember. And that would’ve been because of Epstein, because Epstein was friendly with Boris and Boris — that’s all I remember.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
Mr. Gates traveled with Mr. Epstein on his plane to any of his houses?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So if that — that
friendship was after, you know, it was in the late s. So if I met him — like I said, I went to Epstein’s house maybe once or twice. Maybe I met him there. I don’t remember.
TODD BLANCHE: So you don’t —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I wouldn’t know if
he had been on Epstein’s plane.
TODD BLANCHE: And you weren’t — you
don’t recall ever being on the plane with him flying to the island or to anywhere?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know somebody named
Reid Hoffman?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
TODD BLANCHE: Who’s that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Reid is a Silicon
Valley guy.
TODD BLANCHE: Is what?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Silicon Valley.
TODD BLANCHE: And how do you know him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Through my friends in
San Francisco. I have a — I used to have a very close friend who is in San Francisco who’s part of that whole — I have several, actually, or had.
TODD BLANCHE: So is that a relationship
you had kind of separate and apart from Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Separate.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
Mr. Epstein had a relationship with Reid Hoffman?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
Mr. Hoffman flying anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Or getting massages?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. No.
TODD BLANCHE: So there was — there’s a
list of multiple masseuses that is floating around. I think you had in your discovery. I think you were just talking about that. That list, do you know how that list was created?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. That — all that
stuff that came out of that book, I now find suspect.
TODD BLANCHE: As far — as part of the
story you just told us?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Now, I’m not
saying it’s all fake. I don’t know what’s real and what’s not. I don’t —
TODD BLANCHE: Understood.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — know what name is
true. Now that it’s been to my mind anyway, now that it has been, without a doubt, contaminated and possibly fraudulent, I’m not — I don’t know. I mean, obviously the numbers that I recognize are my own, those are real. But how it was actually ended up put together and compiled and the purposes for it, for which then they blackmailed my boyfriend, now I’m just — no.
TODD BLANCHE: Over the years when you
were serving as like the general manager, so the mid ’90s all the way into the 2000s. Did you or do you know whether anyone maintained a list of all the masseuses, like a running list?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So there would’ve —
so there’s two things — well, three ways. So I know that the house itself, John Alessi had a Rolodex that he kept the names and numbers of all the people that came to the house so that he could call. So –because I only was with Epstein, even at best, half the time. So when I was there, he had like his chief of staff who could find whatever he needed. And when I wasn’t there, he had to rely on somebody else, right? So it’d be that John Alessi or whoever else. So everybody — whoever was traveling with him or wherever he was, he needed somebody else to access information. So he had an assistant chief who was his secretary, who would be the one that would update his computer, you know, like everybody has an address book.
TODD BLANCHE: But was what you’re
describing, which I’m not — it makes sense. I’m just — was that a list of masseuses or a list of people that might need to be contacted, which would, necessarily, include a lot of masseuses?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s — the latter.
TODD BLANCHE: And did you update that?
Like were you part of — were you one of the people that would add names to it? Like if a masseuse came and leaves and Mr. Epstein says yes, she was good, would you be part — like, how, how was the list kind of maintained or who maintained it?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Typically, no —
TODD BLANCHE: No.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — because there would
be an assistant who would do that. Plus, Epstein would not allow me to answer the telephone ever. So — or maintain or keep any of his messages in the office or at the house. So typically that wouldn’t be, because I wouldn’t be the one. Could I say to you I never did it? No, of course not. Because that just seems ludicrous. But as a rule of thumb, the answer would be no.
TODD BLANCHE: During the 2007, ’08, ’09,
investigation — the investigation out of the Southern District of Florida. So you said that you weren’t contacted by law enforcement.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was not.
TODD BLANCHE: After Mr. Epstein was
charged, did you have conversations with him about the investigation?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never talked to me
about it.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I can’t —
let’s put it this way. If he did, I have no recollection of it. I mean, I’m sure he must have said, this is all — whatever he said or it’s nothing or whatever. I mean, I just don’t have any — I just don’t have any memory. I mean, I just — I was with Ted. My — I was like gone. I mean, plus I just didn’t want to know either, I suppose.
TODD BLANCHE: So you don’t know,
firsthand, why the U.S. Attorney in Florida made the deal that he did? Meaning you weren’t part of that discussion along the way. Like Mr. Epstein didn’t say, I’m getting a good deal or, you know, I — something is happening with the case that’s very good. You were — to the extent you know anything about it, it’s just from what you’ve heard or read from others, not from Mr. Epstein; is that right?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never talked about
the non-prosecution directly with me, no. But he did —
DAVID MARKUS: But it’s still enforceable
as to her.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, he never said,
hey, do you — are you happy with this deal like that. But I understood. He never — he never enjoined me to the NPA, but I understand that he included me, specifically, and I’ll tell you why.
DAVID MARKUS: Well, it’s okay. You don’t
need to get into that.
TODD BLANCHE: No, no. Yeah. I’m not —
I don’t want to talk about the legal — the — what’s on appeal. I’m just —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I — well, I
wasn’t.
TODD BLANCHE: The reason for my question,
just to be — I’m not trying to hide something, but there’s a very strong belief that he got a very good deal. And that he should — she — he should have been sentenced to more time or got a different sentence from the feds than a non-prosecution agreement. And I’m not asking you to opine on that, but I’m wondering whether he ever talked to you about that. But it sounds like he didn’t.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That he got a good
deal. No. I think actually — well, his comments that I’ve read was that he didn’t get a good deal. And I think that the, you know, when he fought it so hard is because he didn’t think he did.
TODD BLANCHE: When he was serving his
sentence, were you ever — were you around during that time, like when he was allowed to leave during the day or travel during the day?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never called him. I
never saw him and I never went to the jail.
TODD BLANCHE: So I’m going to ask you
questions that you shouldn’t read into them. I just want to know whether you — whether they resonate with you. Have you ever had any contact with any representative, that you know of, from Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Can you ask me that
again.
TODD BLANCHE: Has — have you ever had
any contact with an individual that you understand to be from Mossad, an Israeli intelligence agency?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, not
deliberately.
TODD BLANCHE: Pardon me?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not deliberately.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And did you know —
we asked this — we talked about this a little bit earlier, but just to put a finer point on it. Did you ever know that Mr. — did you ever — were you ever told — did you ever think that Mr. Epstein was getting any money from any intelligence agency, including Mossad?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I don’t believe
so, but I wouldn’t know. I mean, I would be very surprised if he did. I don’t think so. No.
TODD BLANCHE: We’ve talked about a lot of
names and I’m sure we’ve — there’s some that we haven’t covered. Are there any foreign nationals — so right now we’ve talked about some British, the Royal Family a little bit, and maybe high society folks in Britain. Were there any international businessmen or politicians that had a very close relationship or a close relationship with Mr. Epstein, that we haven’t already talked about?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Off the top of my,
head, I can think of Ehud Barak.
TODD BLANCHE: You said that Mr. Epstein
at some point in the mid to late ’90s he started taking testosterone. Did you ever know him to take any other drugs?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I mean, he took
pills for his heart, I think, but I don’t — no other — no substances.
TODD BLANCHE: What — do you know
anything about his heart condition? I know we talked about this at, you know, 9:45 this morning. But do you know anything about his heart condition, beyond that you understood he had a heart condition that affected his ability to have sex?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Other than what he
told me, no. He never shared anything, but he did take pills. I don’t know what — I don’t know anything above that. And like I said, he did the testosterone, which made him mean.
TODD BLANCHE: And we’re jumping around a
little bit.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: Sorry. Do you know someone
named Donald Barr?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: He is — I can represent to
you, was a former headmaster of the Dalton School, which you mentioned earlier.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember any
conversations with Epstein about a book that Mr. Barr wrote called Space Relations?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’ve never heard of
that.
TODD BLANCHE: About aliens and sex?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. No.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether —
well, have you ever met the former Attorney General of the United States Bill Barr?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember whether
Mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came up in conversations you had with Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t recall any.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Did you have a
relationship or know — I’m using “relationship,” but I appreciate you don’t like that word. Do you have — did you know Mr. Epstein’s brother Mark Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: How did you know him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Through Jeffrey.
TODD BLANCHE: How would you describe your
relationship; close, friendly?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My personal?
TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not that close, but
friendly enough. I mean, you know.
TODD BLANCHE: How was Jeffrey Epstein’s
relationship with his brother Mark from what you observed?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, they were
brotherly, but I think that — I don’t know. I don’t know. They had periods when they were closer and then when they weren’t. I think sometimes Epstein found his brother irritating.
TODD BLANCHE: And I think I know the
answers, given what you just said about Bill Barr, but did you ever hear any — from Mr. Epstein or anybody else — that Bill Barr had any role in Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida, or any role in that process with Mr. Acosta?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never heard that.
TODD BLANCHE: I think you said this in an
interview, but if I’m wrong forgive me. Do you have a view of Mr. Epstein of whether he committed suicide or whether something else happened?
DAVID MARKUS: Can we take a break?
TODD BLANCHE: Want to take a break?
DAVID MARKUS: Yeah, sure.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. We can take a break.
Yeah. Sure. Actually, it’s a good time to take a break anyway, because it’s to be the last one of the day.
SPENCER HORN: All right. So we’re going
to take a break at — it’s 2:53, Thursday, July 24th. (Off the record at 2:53 p.m.)
SPENCER HORN: We are continuing with the
recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. The time is now :10 p.m., Thursday, July 24th.
TODD BLANCHE: My colleagues alerted me to
a couple questions I think I may have forgotten to ask you. One is — sorry, I’m just going through my notes. Well, we talked few minutes ago about this birthday book that there’s press about. I understand you don’t remember anything with President Trump or a lot about the book anyway. Do you remember asking President Trump to submit a letter for that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not.
TODD BLANCHE: And do you remember —
would you have been the one to do that or could somebody else — would somebody else have done that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did ask some people.
I don’t remember Mr. Trump. I don’t remember who I did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself directly.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it could have
happened that way, if it happened at all.
TODD BLANCHE: Where is that?
DIEGO PESTANA: You mentioned Ehud Barak.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
DIEGO PESTANA: What was his involvement?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: This would’ve been in
the later 2000’s. So I do not know how they met, but I do know that they — I don’t know if friendly would be the right word. I don’t know that, but I know that they saw each other and only because my father — you know, anything that touches Israel or the state of Israel, I’m always interested in, because my father loved Israel and so I pay attention to it and we have ties to, you know, to Israel.
TODD BLANCHE: When you said it was later
though —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Ties meaning friends
and family relations.
TODD BLANCHE: Was the Prime Minis- was
Mr. Barak, Prime Minister Barak, do you know what the nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know — were you
ever with them together?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think I met — I
have a memory of meeting Ehud, but I don’t know if he was with Epstein or — I don’t remember. I just know that I did see him and I’m trying — struggling to remember the context around it, but if I — if — I’m sure it happened, but it must have been very brief. Because I don’t have any serious memory of it. Any like, deep memory of that.
TODD BLANCHE: And maybe this is
obvious —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And maybe it comes
also because I’ve read it in the press. That may be something that brought it to my memory. So that’s also — I mean, I’m also — I think the press has been very contaminating, so I just — it’s hard sometimes to separate those stories from your memory sometimes.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know a British
gymnast by the name of Heather Mann?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Did she —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn’t know she was
a gymnast.
TODD BLANCHE: Oh, okay. I’m reading
something that says she was a gymnast, but please don’t assume that that’s correct. This is based upon my words.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: Did she ever travel with
you and/or Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think, yeah, she did
actually. I think that she might have been one of Mr. Epstein’s girlfriends at some point.
TODD BLANCHE: What — again, I know we’re
talking about time periods that are vast. What time period would that have been? Like after you — like since 2000?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say — I
don’t know, it could be the ’90s — could be the ’90s, I don’t know. But I mean, listen, there are people that pop out of the woodwork all the time. I just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend in ’93 and ’94. So I mean, he obviously was very busy.
LEAH SAFFIAN: Or she’s lying.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Or there’s that.
TODD BLANCHE: Did – someone named Mark
Middleton —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I remember him.
TODD BLANCHE: Who was that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was in the —
Mr. Clinton’s administration — President Clinton’s administration, I think.
TODD BLANCHE: And how do you — do you
know him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I met him and
that is — I met him through Mr. Epstein.
TODD BLANCHE: And do you — was he, from
what you observed, was he a friend or business acquaintance of Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I only saw him
a handful of times, but I did see him with him. I mean, he seemed friendly. I don’t know if I would characterize — I mean, only having seen him briefly, I don’t know how to characterize that.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether he like
flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein? Did he visit the island? Do you know anything about that or their relationship as it relates to that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never — I don’t
have any recollection of seeing Mark Middleton at the island.
TODD BLANCHE: How about former US Senator
George Mitchell?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I do remember
George.
TODD BLANCHE: What do you remember about
him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I traveled with him.
We went to — the most memorable affair I went to — well, I was friendly with his wife. Start with that, with Heather. And Heather was in New York, so I hung out with her a few times. We had dinner and I was just friendly, I would say separately with — separately from her husband. I was friends with Heather. I met Heather through her husband, but we became friends.
TODD BLANCHE: You became friends with
Heather?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Heather, yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Was Mr. Epstein friends
with, Mr. Mitchell?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Did they travel together
besides New York? Did they travel to the island or to New Mexico?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t — I don’t
remember George ever at the island. But the most memorable trip I do recall with Senator was to Italy.
TODD BLANCHE: Was to where?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: To Italy.
TODD BLANCHE: Ah, okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: We went to Rome.
TODD BLANCHE: As the four of you. So
Heather and Mr. Mitchell, and you and Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s my
recollection.
TODD BLANCHE: And what were you there
for?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, the most
memorable aspect of that trip is we went to the Vatican. It was extraordinary, the most extraordinary thing was going to the archives and holding Henry VIII’s document to the Pope asking for his divorce.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know the former
president of Colombia, Andr?s Pastrana?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: How do you know him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Andr?s Pastrana
in a pub in Dublin.
TODD BLANCHE: And did he travel with
Mr. Epstein, that you know?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t — I don’t
know if — I don’t know if he ever was ever on the plane. I don’t know if he ever — I don’t think he ever came to the island. But, I went to places with Andr?s Pastrana. One was to Colombia and Epstein came to that, and the other was to Cuba and Epstein and Andr?s Pastrana was — I think was there.
TODD BLANCHE: And what were the purposes
of traveling to Colombia, then Cuba?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I am a helicopter
pilot and Andr?s is a helicopter pilot. And we just became friends and I flew a Blackhawk in Colombia.
TODD BLANCHE: And how about to Cuba?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My — I have a friend
of mine who was the cigar distributor for Montecristo maybe, I can’t remember which cigar it was. And so we went there, and he organized the trip and we met Fidel Castro.
TODD BLANCHE: When was that,
approximately?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Had to be — it had to
be 2002, 2003.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Something like that, I
think.
TODD BLANCHE: There’s some more names
that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type of questions, just — but as far as a catchall, there’s been a tremendous amount of public information about all kinds of names, including some of the folks we talked about today and their relationship with Mr. Epstein and or you. For any of the folks that we’ve talked about today, did you observe them doing anything improper with Mr. Epstein, whether with masseuses or with women who were — or girls who were traveling or at the residence that they were at or at the parties that they were at?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did not ever, at any
time, see that.
TODD BLANCHE: And for any of the names
we’ve talked about today, and then tomorrow we’ll talk about some more, but for today, do you recall having any conversations with anybody else, where they reported to you that they had seen something that one of these individuals had done, whether someone else that works with Mr. Epstein or somebody that observed something?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If anybody had ever
reported anything — first of all, the answer to that is no. And also, I just want to be clear that had anybody ever reported anything illegal or disgusting like that, I would’ve immediately done something. And I never heard it. I never saw it. And no one ever, ever, ever complained to me or tears, nothing like that.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So we
took a break when we were talking about Mr. Epstein and his death. Oh, bless you. That’s okay. Take your time. So Mr. Epstein and his death. So you were not, obviously, at the MCC during that time, correct.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you.
DAVID MARKUS: Oh, thanks. I thought you
were giving it to him.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’ve got something
that blew up my nose.
TODD BLANCHE: So just take some water.
It’s okay, no problem. You were not at the MCC during that time, correct?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was not.
TODD BLANCHE: So you’re going to tell us
what you believe, but just to — I just want to make sure I understand, your basis for belief is kind of what you’ve read and seen and your knowledge of Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew them — knew him, right?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And actually there’s a
third component.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The answer to that is,
yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there’s a third
component to that, which is having experienced now, the mismanagement and inefficiencies and total dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Prisons.
TODD BLANCHE: From BOP. From the Bureau
of Prisons.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Fair. Okay. So,
you know, I want to — what I do want to be careful about is — you know, asking you to speculate, because anybody can do that. And I don’t think that’s fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give us your kind of opinion. But, do you think that — the third point you say, which is kind of a failure by the BOP, there’s been a lot of — there’s an OIG report, there’s SDNY investigation about that. Do you — so you think he was — he did not die by suicide, given all the things we just talked about.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not believe he
died by suicide, no.
TODD BLANCHE: And do you believe that —
do you have any speculation or view of who killed him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — no, I don’t.
TODD BLANCHE: And I ask that because, if
you don’t believe that there’s any truth to the allegations of blackmail or that he had kind of a list, or that he had reasons to have people hate him, why would somebody kill him in prison?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In prison, where I am,
they will kill you or they will pay — somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of commissary. That’s about the going rate for a hit with a lock today.
TODD BLANCHE: So that goes to the third
reason, which is kind of the mismanagement.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Or the shortfallings or
shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisons.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Which is a little bit
different than my — from my question is, which is, do you think there was somebody on the outside of prison, so putting aside, what could happen on the inside on the outside of prison, who would — who wanted him dead so badly that he would’ve, or she would’ve, you know, caused him to be killed on the inside?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think that’s — I
don’t see that. I think, is it possible? Of course it’s possible. But I don’t know of any reason why, and I don’t believe in the blackmail or in any of this, I don’t think Epstein had a hit on like that. If it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal situation.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. So you’re not — you
don’t have any reason firsthand knowledge or even speculation, it sounds like, to think that he was — if — that he was killed to kind of silence him or to keep him from going public about people he knew about?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t, no, because I
think that is just part of the story that’s been created that started back in 2008, ’09.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah, I mean, that’s
the point. Like, I don’t want — I don’t think there’s value in talking — you know, there’s been a lot of — there’s a lot of information about what happened, you know, at the MCC and — but what is important to me is whether, you know, if — is the idea that he didn’t die by suicide, that’s one thing. But if to the extent that folks believe that he was murdered to keep him quiet or because he had information on rich and powerful people, that’s what I — do you have any reason to believe that that’s true?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not have any
reason to believe that. And I also think it’s ludicrous, because if that — I also happen to think if that is what they wanted, they would’ve had plenty of opportunity when he wasn’t in jail. And if they were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he would’ve been a very easy target.
TODD BLANCHE: In the time — so we’ve
talked about a lot of time, all the way up through , ’10, and then your — the time that after Mr. Epstein was arrested, when’s the last time you spoke with him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Maybe 2016, 2017,
maybe 2016 — 2015, 2016, 2017 in that area, I believe.
TODD BLANCHE: And what — when you’re
thinking about that last time was that you had talked — been talking to him a lot, and then you stopped, or was that a one-off time and it was infrequent at that point?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really wasn’t in
communication. The only communications I had with him was in — with regards to the civil suits, the civil suit that I found myself in, the defamation suit I found myself in. I needed help, I needed information, and I didn’t have what I needed. And so that was really what it was — that what drove it, was me trying to get myself out of this situation, which I — ultimately led to where I am today. And so when — when all that — when that — I don’t remember even if I stopped talking to him before that, I think he was — I thought he was angry with me anyway. He didn’t like what I did, and he — I wasn’t interested in what he had to say to me, and —
TODD BLANCHE: What did you think he was
angry with you about?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he was angry
that I had even said that I had referred to her being a liar. He said I should have not said anything but.
TODD BLANCHE: When the civil suits that
were ongoing before Mr. Epstein’s death?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Did your lawyers coordinate
with his lawyers, like in discovery and things like that or anything?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t think we
coordinated in — I don’t — I’m not sure.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t want to
misspeak. I don’t — I — there was some degree of communication for sure. I just don’t know the degree that that took place. So definitely — I mean, I was definitely hoping for him to be more helpful. And I was definitely, coordinating is not a good word, because that sounds like I was trying to make — align myself. That’s not where we were going here, but I was definitely trying to get help. As in documents or information that I could use to defend myself. That’s a hundred percent true. And the degree to which that took place, I’m not — I don’t recall. There was definitely some of that, though. I don’t want to mislead you.
TODD BLANCHE: And we touched on this
earlier, but I just want to — I don’t think we really ran it to ground maybe as much as we could like. Going up through that time, you know, so in the ’16, ’17, ’18, up until the time he’s arrested, had your view or your understanding of what had happened changed? Meaning did you believe that in the late ’90s or early 2000s when he started, you know, behaving much differently. Did you believe what you were hearing about him at that point?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My views, I didn’t
like the people he was with anyway. So I don’t find — how do I say this? I don’t like — I like people who my age or older, and I don’t find the society of, or the companionship of younger people who are young people, I suppose, is really that enjoyable. So I don’t like the company that he chose to be with, and so I just was — I find it boring and fundamentally uninteresting. That’s probably the nicest way I can say it.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. So I think
what we should do is just spend a few minutes talking about tomorrow. Everything was great today. I think that we — it was very helpful and I appreciate you trying to be as complete as you can. I think tomorrow — you’ve said a few things today about materials that you brought. When we’re done, we will give you a few minutes with Mr. Markus to — if there’s things that you want to show him that you think we should see. Like I said, I’m not asking you to corroborate anything. If I was asking you to corroborate something, I would tell you, but if there’s something you think that you don’t think that the government has seen or you think that is important for me to see, let Mr. Markus know and he can share it with me. Tomorrow we’ll certainly have some follow-on questions when we all think about tonight. And I think you will too. You know, we can all think about stuff we’ve talked about. We covered a lot of different areas. We are — I do want to talk about more about you. So by design today we wanted to focus on Mr. Epstein and talk about, you know, kind of, well, everything under the sun that we’ve gone through today. I do think it’s important when we all evaluate what you’ve said today, and kind of your story to understand, to also understand your — why you’re here, right? So you were indicted, you were charged, you went to trial. And I want to do that in a way that gives you an opportunity to say — to kind of say your piece or to say what you haven’t said before. But also understanding that there was people who took the witness stand and swore to tell the truth and testified about you, and what you did, and what they think you saw and what they heard you say. And I’m not — I said to Mr. Markus, I’m not trying to create a kind of a she said, she said situation or he said, she said situation. But I do want to hear from you about your conduct, because it’s important, I think, for when we evaluate what you say and how you say it and your recollection of things to also to talk about that. So we’re going to — we’ll do that tomorrow. I want to talk about, you know, the circumstances leading up to your arrest. There’s a lot of, I think, misinformation or there’s a lot of information out there that — I don’t know whether there’s misinformation, but about the time from, you know, 2019 up until the time that you were — that you were arrested. And then, like I said, that’ll take us through lunch tomorrow and then we’ll be done. I’m not — I don’t have a plan. I didn’t know that I was coming here until this week, okay? So I’m not — there isn’t like a — we don’t have like a schedule of what happens next or what happens. But the — but that’s not a negative thing. I’m just saying that that’s — so you shouldn’t take the lack of a next step as anything other than, we don’t have a next step yet, so.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: May I say something?
TODD BLANCHE: Of course, yes.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I just would like to
put out there that I also focused on how I think the president got swept into some of this unnecessarily, by the way. And I’m not a conspiracy theorist, and I certainly don’t subscribe to all the — all of everything that I see. But I do believe that there is animus in some areas that may have contributed to how the use of the president to harm him, that I find deeply offensive. And whilst I can’t obviously say definitively that that is what it is, I would like to show you what I see so that you can evaluate it and do with that as you see fit if it needs to be addressed. I’ve seen it, it struck me, and I would like to give it to you.
TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: For what it’s worth.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that seem
something that I can —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Of course. I don’t
like that.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. That’s fine.
That’s great. Okay, so why don’t we stop for today. I’ll give you a little bit of time to chat and then, see you in the morning.
SPENCER HORN: This will conclude the
recorded proffer interview for Thursday, July 24th. We will continue tomorrow, Friday, July 25th. The time is 3:34. (Interview concluded at 3:34 p.m.) CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION I, Cathy M. Ayotte, do hereby certify that the provided audio recording media was transcribed by me or reduced to typewriting under my supervision, that said transcript is a true transcription of the audio recording; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action involved in these proceedings; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. __________________________________________ CATHY M. 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annoying :3 another :2,19 38:1 79:13 :16 103:14121:13 answer DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION :4 85:17 93:17 :22 137:4 152:3152:23 186:9,15203:3 204:10 answers :16 126:20 193:15 anticipation :9 anybody :19 14:20 81:7,7,9 :13 88:11 93:6107:22 108:8,10125:11 156:25,25173:3 193:17202:22 203:2,5204:23,24 anyone :6,16 31:16 47:7 :16 171:8 184:24 anything :25 4:3 14:2 17:4 :12 37:13 42:250:13 53:15 57:460:2 63:19 74:882:5 85:8 89:17108:9 113:14125:11 127:25141:14 152:5156:21 157:1,8159:1 176:23 178:1187:20 191:7,9,13191:15 194:19195:18 198:23202:12 203:3,5207:20 209:5,11211:12 213:14 anyway :9 33:16 44:1,23 :24 57:7 126:19131:10,12 133:23137:5,7 158:17184:12 194:5,20208:23 210:17 anyways :17 anywhere77:1,19 80:13 182:21 :18 apart :20 183:12 apartment :11 18:5 20:3 :4 apocryphal :3,6 apologize :12 177:5 appeal :12 appear :5 APPEARANCES :4 apply :3 125:23 appreciate :25 93:16 96:1 :19 211:4 approached :21 appropriate :24 78:15 approximately :5 134:1,6 141:3 :6 201:23 April :14 166:24 aquatic :25 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91:1892:23 93:3 96:21118:10 124:21147:1 169:3 171:1177:22 181:13190:3 195:4 asking :13 3:16 7:19 8:2 :3 52:6 93:1594:1 108:16 152:3188:22 194:21200:19 204:22211:11,12 aspect :23 :2 200:16 assaults :17 assembled :7 assigned :2 assist :19 72:23 assistant :6 185:14 186:8 :6 185:14 186:8 Associate :7 2:17 associated :15 81:24 151:17 assume :10 76:2 122:12 :7 assumed :19 assuming :17 astonished :5 attached :17 attack :23 attend :3,4,16 150:2 attention :13 73:21 195:20 attorney :6,8 2:12,18 156:11 :13 192:10 :10 attorneys :14 attractive :20,24 audio :3,6 August :8,14,17 Australia :5 Australian :17 authenticity :9 avoid :24 avoiding :16 aware :5,7 63:4 75:1278:18 80:6 121:22166:8,11 167:21168:1 176:25 away :6,14 86:19 awkward :1 Ayotte :2,14 a.m :10 40:6,6,9 B back :17 7:9 8:7 9:14 :16 14:21 17:1919:6,23,25,25 22:1322:18 24:14,2236:12 40:19 46:1749:8 51:6 54:657:22 58:12 60:1061:20 67:4 76:977:3 88:16 90:696:21 97:12 99:3,14109:7 116:14 117:3120:23 121:9,12129:11 132:12143:15 145:14,18160:3 162:8 168:13170:5 207:2 background :12 145:12 backwards :14 bad :3 131:20 badly :9 Bahamas :20 bank :2 42:2 130:4 banks :2 bar :3,4Barak :23 195:10 196:2 :2 Barclays :14 Barings :4,4 Barr :21 192:3,11 :15,17 base :4 based :9 99:4 110:20 :3 197:7 basically :1 40:12 72:5 98:1 :8 172:20175:24 178:6 basis :23 140:22 157:21 :9 204:3 bath :14,15 bathrobe :22 157:10 bathroom :19 139:14 142:14 :21,24 143:1,5 bathtub :24 Beach :3,5,17 39:17 :15 43:10 44:6,1244:13,18 45:3 77:1478:25 79:3,6,682:14 90:14 105:20116:18,20 125:20126:3 151:8 161:4162:21 174:6 Bear :1,1,23 55:4,17,18 :16,21 Beard :10 2:20 became20:6 23:20 27:16,16 :22 39:6 40:2164:12 65:25 72:2485:4,6,6 92:10105:10 115:17130:14 137:19151:12 167:21168:1 173:13199:17,18 201:15 become :25 96:6 becomes :4 167:6,7,13 becoming :3 bed :13,19,20 31:1 :15 bedroom :1 76:20 113:19 been :17 4:2 6:24,25 8:24 :2 10:21 11:1 13:713:16 19:7 20:423:21 24:20 26:9,2128:24 33:16 34:2134:21 38:24 39:8,939:24 43:19 45:1352:1 53:4,22 57:471:4 73:19 75:3,1579:16 81:17,22,2581:25 84:9 87:1091:24 93:18,1994:15 96:24,25 98:398:10 104:6 105:20108:3,5 109:20119:7 123:12,13128:10,11 138:25148:17 151:17154:6,11 157:25164:11 166:4 169:5169:8,10,10 170:12175:3 177:5,6178:17 182:5,18184:12,13 188:19194:25 195:13 :12,21 197:13 :17 202:7 205:3207:1,5,21 208:7 before :13 3:12,16 8:13 :6,8 14:19 16:342:11 52:1 53:755:21 59:2 71:483:12,20 85:16,1697:7,11 127:2129:20 130:8,9133:19 134:22137:1 138:7 139:19152:16 154:8,12164:3 170:8 208:22209:7 212:10 befriended :25 began :25 begin :20 beginning :12 23:12 47:15 :21,22 91:21104:10 108:4112:21,23 166:17 begins :17 behaving :14 behavior :13 115:14 behind :18 142:8 143:21 :4 being :10 27:23 31:22 :23 45:16 52:1179:4 99:5 101:19114:19 131:19135:1,9 136:2 137:9137:10 143:4 148:3148:21 153:14164:2 182:20 209:4 belief13:16 120:6 188:17 :3 believe :10,13 13:13 20:11 :25 23:18 26:132:5 39:9 43:2445:1 52:21 55:562:24,24 73:11,1573:25 78:11 79:1484:21 85:4,6 86:1690:25 93:24 94:1,1494:20,23 95:6 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:11,19 84:1 87:288:16,25 99:16171:5 172:22 177:1205:15 206:15207:20 blackmailed :8 184:19 blackmailing :14 bless :12 blew :20 blinking :17 blivet :17 BLM :4,5 block :19 blown :16 board :4 111:1 boat :23 112:14 157:20 :21,21 Boeing :16 bono :13 book :4,8,17,19 :21 :22 164:13,14166:5 171:24 172:2172:4 173:12,18 DOJ REDACTION :2,4,12,14,20,23 :23 175:20176:19 177:7,13,16177:21,23 178:12179:4,11 180:8181:4 184:4 185:17192:3 194:18,20 boom :7 BOP :17 205:2 borders :6 bore :15 bored :11,12 boring :23 Boris :2,7,7 born :18 Boston :17,18 both :3,13 31:6 61:25 :2,3 82:4 87:1190:12 104:24 114:5146:22 161:25168:4 bothered :6 bought :11 26:22 36:2 :20,21 158:12158:12 boyfriend :22 97:5,10 150:10 :13 169:3 171:2184:19 boyfriends :15 Brad :9 166:24 167:1,6 :21 168:1,5,9,12168:15 169:23170:1,6,12,25 171:1171:20 172:18173:8,17 174:9176:15 bragged :22 bragging :10 Brazil :14 break :3,6 40:2,5,6,12,12 :2 109:7,11163:11 165:16,20165:22 166:4193:25 194:1,3,5,8203:11 brief :12 briefcase :4,5,7 briefly :24 8:5,20 16:9 :12 198:19 bright :13 bring :14,20 Britain :17 British :14 123:13,14,17 :20 190:15196:24 broad :17 broadest :24 97:16 broke :11 158:17 159:11 :9 broken :20,22 Brooklyn :24brother :16 192:21 193:7 :13 brotherly :10 brother’s :2,7 brought :23 111:1 122:8 :13 165:9196:19 211:7 brownstone :8 Brunel :19 budget :21 budgets :25 36:1,1 building :23,25 built :13 bullshit :6,8,21,25 137:11 :18 144:25 bunch :5 burdened :16,17 Bureau :16,17 206:2 burp :11 business :16,17 13:23 :6 :22 21:10 28:2429:6,9 57:1 58:2259:22,25 60:8,12,1660:20 61:13 62:9,1063:19 67:20,2468:12,14 73:2,7127:8 163:4,5,13,16163:18 164:5198:14 businesses12:16,20 29:12,14 businessman :21 58:8 73:9 businessmen :18 busy :21 197:24 butler :1 167:12 buy :10 buying :19 by :17,23 13:20 20:3 :13 30:19 31:2232:7 39:12 42:17,1945:8 52:1 56:1961:10 85:25 87:2,1089:18 94:18 109:21117:8 120:19124:17 127:6131:16 136:14138:11 140:10145:15 159:17169:7 170:19172:20 180:23186:20 196:25205:2,5,8 207:9211:24 213:21215:4,7,10 C cabana :16 call :7 36:4 40:23 :18 45:2,3,763:11 79:5 115:6125:12 149:12166:25 167:22185:5 called :17 4:12,21 5:13 :25 9:6 15:1339:11,20,20 51:14 :5 91:1 94:18 :15 102:13133:21 146:8,9,11158:23,23 163:4,5164:14 166:24167:12 168:17169:9 170:8 177:19177:21,24 189:9192:4 calling :10 calls :19 51:9 came :15 15:4 18:21 :20 24:14 26:2030:1 33:14 34:2248:5 49:15 55:9,989:16 93:24 94:2495:8 96:20 97:1,4,4112:12,13 120:5,16137:7 157:17158:20 160:9 172:1176:10,13 184:4185:5 186:1 192:14201:7,9 camera :11,11,12 79:12,13 :17 80:4 81:1 cameras :16,17,18 79:7,14 :6,13,18,19,2181:4 can :20 5:8 6:16 8:6 :8 12:25,25 13:116:17 17:14 18:919:17,18 25:5,6,725:23 34:8 36:1438:12 49:2 53:954:16,19 57:18 68:768:8 69:4 71:1 72:472:8,10 74:19,22,2479:21,25 84:5 85:887:13 95:4 101:22101:22 109:24123:10 124:17128:2 130:25 131:2132:20 133:2 134:2136:23 137:4,5140:7 144:21 145:2148:19,23 152:18164:20 169:14172:8 177:18189:18 190:23191:23 193:25194:3 204:23205:19 210:24211:5,17,20 214:4214:12 cannot :9,13 95:4 112:24 :19 can’t :11 10:15 35:20 :18 43:18 44:254:15 57:3 69:371:15,16 72:2595:15 99:6 101:23109:4 111:4 114:1,8133:14 141:17,17142:21,23 148:18149:24 152:5,12162:24 163:3,5187:3 201:19 214:2 Capital :8 car :25 39:8 57:19 card :25 care :11 48:18,20 87:1 :18 140:8 careful :21 cares :8 Caribbean :11Carrier :5 carry :1 carte :16 cartel :9,10,19 cartels :5 case :2,14 5:4,5,5,11 :24 7:1,8 8:15 17:625:9 37:9 42:1046:22,24 47:6 51:2381:19 82:6,9 96:25146:21 168:23169:1,21,23 170:8170:17,20,24 172:4176:10 187:18 cases :21 Castro :21 catch :4 catchall :6 categorically :18 148:19,23 Cathy :2,14 cattle :5 cause :4 caused :10 caveat :1 caveats :1 Cayne :3,13 101:3 celebrate178:7 celebration :9 certain :24 176:20 certainly :12 14:1 15:23 :3 23:18 32:7,2037:5 51:12 54:261:25 76:9 88:6105:11 106:16107:16 128:17130:19,22 134:22134:23 149:10,15163:1 171:25211:18 213:22 certificate :3 215:1 certify :2 chalk :10 challenging :3 chance :24 change :21 37:20 116:1 changed :19 115:16 116:9 :5 210:11 changes :14 :13 Chapo :6,8 Chapo’s :8 character :8 characterization :24 characterize :13 198:19,20 charge :6,20 9:7 160:2 charged DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION :22 51:20 93:18 :1 186:23 212:6 chat :18 chatted :14 check :21 133:6 140:7 checked :1,2 cheeses :10 Chelsea :5 chief :14 5:12 182:1 :8,14 child :10 32:11 125:12 :3 157:24 children :4 89:3 choose :25 chose :22 Churcher :9 CIA :22 cigar :18,19 Circles :14 circumstances :25 civil :21 82:6 166:20 :13,24 169:4,6171:15 172:3,4208:12,13 209:6 claimed :7 clarify :21 clarity’s84:18 clash :25 classic :14,15 clean :14 clear :25 93:5 114:13 :6,14 203:4 clearly :2,2,5 clever :7 cli :20 client :9 59:11,13 70:22 :18 74:12 82:2288:4 99:21 133:7,8164:15,24 clients :6,7,7,8 65:1 66:20 :7 71:13 72:15,1873:21 83:2 87:190:1,2 99:18,23,25102:8 167:4 client’s :24 60:1 Clinton :11,11 34:11,13,19 :22,23 99:18100:4 103:17,24104:7 150:21 151:1 Clinton’s :2,5 198:7,7 close :25 25:19 31:14 :7 107:16 126:6134:19,20,21,24150:21,23,24 159:3180:14 183:9190:19,20 193:1,4 closed :9,17 closer193:11 clothed :24 clothes :19,19 39:14 97:25 :1 clothing :15 club :1 clunky :15 cognition :22 colleagues :13 collected :1 174:6 Colombia :22 201:8,12,15 combination :25 172:6 come :23 9:14,20 11:22 :16 :19 22:13 :18 28:22 36:1244:6 46:17 48:449:8 56:24 58:1260:10 67:3 69:1975:5 77:3 90:1392:24 99:3 109:7112:11 125:5 129:7132:13 136:23139:22,23 148:16167:2 168:13171:15 comes :7 97:24 122:4 :19 174:20196:17 comfortable :15 136:19 coming :16 88:16 90:6 :12 136:13151:12 166:21213:9 comments :1 commercial :23,25 commissary :21 committed :23 common :6 communicate :10 communicating :21 communication :20 208:11 209:17 communications :11 companies :5 companionship :20 company :24,25 9:4 48:15,17 :9 210:22 compilation :23 compiled :18 complained :8 complaint :18,20 168:3,4 complete :5 completely :3 110:14 complex :11 component :23 204:8,14 compromising :8 82:3 84:1 computer :11 171:25,25 :5 185:16 computers :3 con :9 conceivable :16 149:2 concerned :10 104:25 conclude :20 concluded :24 condition :24 22:1,2,3,6,9 :22 191:7,9,10 conditioning :3,3 conduct :15 109:21 116:10 :19 conference :20,21,22 confidence :11 confident :2 confidential :8,9,10 confirming :18 confused :15 173:10 congregated :8 Congressman :14 connect :11 connection :23 16:1,1 connections :15 conscientious :20 conscious161:12 consensual :24 consider :15,15 conspiracy :21 constant :10 constantly :24 construction :14,18,21 110:23 constructions :15 contact :21 75:17 88:13 :9 119:3 189:15 :21 contacted :1 185:21 186:20 contacts :14 contained :25 contains :3 contaminated :13 contaminating :21 contemporaneously :15 171:21 context :21 108:12 118:18 :4,12 162:5196:11 contexts :23 continue :21 30:16 47:6,9 :20 109:15214:22 continued :18 continuing40:7 109:13 194:10 contract :2 contracts :17 contractual :21 contribute :22 178:13,16 contributed :25 controlled :20 controller :5 conversation :21 15:6 61:16 :10 :14 conversations :17 81:12 164:12 :23 192:3,15202:22 cool :24 128:16 Cooper :15 cooperating :7,7 cooperation :22 coordinate :18 209:9 coordinated :20 209:13 coordinating :20 copy :17 6:10 175:6 cordial :1 corner :12 Corporate :1 correct :24 58:8 63:1476:3 78:14 83:4152:21,22 197:7203:15,24 corroborate :12,13 corroborating :22 140:6 145:2 corroboration :12 corroborative :9 could :15 7:17,20 12:13 :9 36:4 38:9 39:239:2,12 60:7,13,1362:13,18 64:7 87:1590:19 104:7 109:18110:21 111:3113:10,17 114:17118:16,17 126:23139:9,10 141:20142:15 143:13,15144:5,11 146:2148:16,25 174:25175:1 185:5,8186:13 194:25195:7 197:20,20206:7 209:25 210:7 couldn’t :24 62:1 116:13 :25 135:9,25142:22 143:18159:16 counsel :24 3:1,3 215:7,10 count :14,15 country :25 116:19 140:5 :2 149:1 couple :10 115:25 :12 194:14 course :17 19:18 88:19 :14 129:19 :16 137:7 :14 206:13213:17 214:14 court :18 180:19 covered :14 211:21 covert :19 crash :25 39:8 crazy :18 create :17 created :14,17,19 171:13 :8,11 184:2207:2 creating :6 168:25 170:16 credentials :2 credenza :16 crime :25 89:3,4 criminal :5,5 82:8 167:18,20 :3,4 critical :22 cross :8,15 93:22 crossed :7 Cuba :9,12,16 Cuomo :1 Cuomo’s :24 154:3 curious :15 CVRA :9 146:21 169:23170:8,9,20 Czechoslovakia :2 Czechoslovakian :24 D dad :2,4,17 12:9 13:19 :4,11 16:4 159:24177:17 daily :12,22 43:1 Dalton :25 55:1,2 191:24 Dan :1 dance :4 dangerous :10 dark :4,9 date :2 2:9 71:5 79:19,22 :23 101:23 131:2131:3,4,19 133:2,8134:1,2 dated :9 dates :23 101:17 dating :8 11:1 18:15,18 :23 35:5 38:6130:12 daughter :17 daughter’s :3 David :13 2:22,23,23 12:7 :25 22:2 28:1733:18 34:11 39:1539:23 40:3 67:2069:17 71:17,23 72:274:9,12,14,17 83:184:10 85:16,21 90:193:5 97:14 98:14,18123:23 124:1 128:4128:9 135:16138:14 141:19,22143:7 144:10,17147:18 148:7151:14 164:23165:15 188:1,8193:25 194:2203:17 day :16 85:12 114:25 :2 116:22 117:7117:8 178:10 189:8189:8 194:6 days :23 168:19 de :24 dead :9 deal :22 61:11 62:9 :14,17 188:4,18189:1,2 193:18 dealer :12 96:3 dealing :23 163:21 death :10 12:23 53:15 :12,14 209:7 debacle :18 debates :17 decade-long :21 December :11,25 95:19 decently :8 decided :12 159:4deciding :14 decline :11 declined :20 decorate :1 21:12 decorated :14 143:1 decorating :5 decorator :13 49:22 140:16 decorators :14 deep :16 196:14 deeply :1 defamation :13 defend :17 84:23 209:25 Defense :22 define :18,24 85:10 :12 defining :3 definitely :10 50:21 82:13 :12,13 111:12112:21 114:4 153:7153:7 155:16209:18,19,20,24210:3 definition :25 definitively :5 214:3 degree :16,17 210:1 deliberately :24 :1 Dempster :15 denied :13 deny :24 Department :1 19:21 143:20 deposed :8 deposition :2,9,11,13,14 depositions :23 Deputy :6,7,10 2:12,18 dereliction :16 Dershowitz :6,11 156:10,21 :5 173:20 describe :7 59:14 98:23 :23 192:25 described :25 136:10 172:10 describes :21 describing :16 185:19 description :4 86:2 142:19 deserves :25 design :23 211:24 designers :23 desires :22 desk :10,11 detail :23 details :17 51:17 66:15determine :10 develop :14 111:5,8,8 device :1 devious :20 Diana :15,15,20 133:3 Diana’s :24 didn’t :22 11:10 15:19 :5 18:22 19:13 :18 21:14 22:523:16,19 25:3,12,1330:25 31:1,10,1035:25 37:12,1241:19 42:15 45:1745:18,20,23,24 46:146:2,2,13,13,1348:17,20,21,2150:13,14,14 57:1267:21 74:5 78:1,385:1 96:15 98:16101:6,10 104:8106:12 112:4 118:4118:9,18,21 119:12119:13,14,14,17,23119:25,25 120:18121:10,14 122:12125:15 128:21129:14 135:5148:18 150:2159:14 160:19161:9 163:20 164:3180:20 187:11,16188:24 189:2,4197:3 207:9 208:15208:23 210:16213:8 die :5 207:9 died :19 44:2 52:1253:6,7,20 205:8 Diego :7 2:16,17,17 145:6 :11 152:8195:10,12 difference :10 137:9 different :6,7,14 30:5,6 37:1 :18 90:12 110:14114:16 168:3 175:5188:19 206:5211:22 differently :14 difficult :9 difficulty :4 diminished :12 dinner :10,14,14,23 34:22 :1,2 155:4199:13 directly :3 187:24 195:5 Dirt :18 disagreement :17 disclosure :11 discovery :18 81:18 83:6,13 :15,16 179:5,15179:16,20 180:7,12183:24 209:10 discuss :8 discussed :11 166:5 discussion :15 disgraced :21disgusting :17 203:5 dispute :3 147:17 disrespected :24 distance :18 distinct :14 distinction :22,25 distinguishing :7 distributor :18 District :14,25 :2,19 :10 172:6,24175:19 186:19 divorce :20 doctors :13 Docu :1 document :16 200:19 documentable :1 documented :19 documents :7 171:21 172:8 :1 180:15209:24 does :7 6:19 35:1 37:19 :14 50:17,22 59:659:6,7,8,10 61:963:2 86:5 98:14102:15,19 115:22118:24 121:16125:22 173:21214:11 doesn’t :2 13:17 32:19 :14 48:22 50:1896:10 118:23123:16 124:24140:9 148:7 doing :8 42:18 44:7 59:5 :19 76:3,13 78:185:13 86:22 93:1996:23 109:4 115:7126:25 141:14142:20 156:21202:12 DOJ :17 dollars :20 57:18,20 61:3 Dominic :25 Donald :23 173:21 178:24 :21 done :9 126:14 156:25 :4 195:1 202:24203:6 211:8 213:7 door :25 80:16 81:2,3 :18,18,20 dots :14 doubt :5,8 151:23 :13 Doug :14 down :22 57:18 66:15 :4,22 71:19158:15 159:13,14 drama :22 50:14 51:13 :13 drive :16 93:9 dropped126:24 drove :17 drug :5 95:12 96:3 druggie :4,4 druggies :5 drugs :10 191:2 Dubin :21 24:5 70:21 :11 Dubin’s :24 Dublin :1 dump :16 duped :23 during :13 27:15 28:20 :7 42:3,3 46:2451:3 65:18 100:9103:1 114:21166:12 176:16186:17 189:6,7,8203:15,23 duties :23 duty :16 E E :1,1 each :25 26:1 27:1,21 :6 147:17,19,25155:1 160:15162:11 195:17 Earhart :6,7 earlier54:11 130:15 149:6 :4 191:25 210:6 early :9 48:9 59:4 68:19 :20 91:5,7 95:399:19 100:7,10104:10,11 109:18110:16,20 111:15111:24 128:17134:9 160:3 210:13 earth :16 143:16 :22,23 Easily :10 easy :21 edging :2 education :14 Edwards :9 166:24 167:1,6 :21 168:1,9,12168:15 169:23170:1,6,12,19,25171:1,20 172:18173:8,17 174:9176:15 Edward’s :5 effort :1,18 170:22 Ehud :23 195:10 196:8 either :13 20:4 24:17 42:1 :3,15,24 90:1393:13 114:5 125:16126:10,25 133:16152:6 162:25 164:6170:23 180:1187:11 El :6,8,8 electrician78:4 electricians :15 Elizabeth :11 else :25 34:8 49:18 :6 72:20 75:2177:1,19 88:4,1194:23 96:9 97:6138:13 170:5172:25 178:11185:10,11,13193:17,24 195:1,1202:22,25 204:24 eludes :24 email :20 51:16 emails :7 embarrassed :14 embassy :9 emergency :6 employed :18,20 215:7,10 employee :11 215:10 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167:2167:13 168:1 169:1169:11,12 170:1,16170:22 173:13175:20 176:13 exact :19 95:23 101:17 :1 exactly :10 112:10 121:21 exaggeration :13 examine :8,15 example :17 158:7 excellent :14 except :23 66:4 exception :2 :21,23,24 exceptions :10,18 excited :24,24 146:5 :5 exciting :4,4 exhaustive :10 Exhibit :13 174:13 :15,18 existed :8,12 existence :4 164:16 exists :11 82:1 expeditions :6 experience :19 experienced :14 explain :14 16:9 26:25 :19 120:23143:24 157:18 exploration :8 explorations :22 exploratory :22 158:3 explorers :16 extent :8 25:22 26:23 :19 207:10 exterior :17 extort :14 extraordinary :3 200:17,18 extrapolated :19 extravagances :23 F F :15 fabulous :5 fact4:6 9:23 24:2 25:1 :16 74:25 84:3140:24 160:9 163:2169:6 failure :2 fair :9 117:14 204:20 :24 faithful :15 fake :13 146:7 147:2,4 :4,6,23 168:25168:25 170:16172:12 176:5 184:8 fall :24 falling :5,10 false :21 120:6 153:7 family :13 12:16,19,20 :22 24:11 29:1229:15 38:9,17 101:5128:15 129:8130:19,22 132:17143:14 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handle :21 hands :24 168:20 handwriting :23 handwritten :10 hang :12 100:20 happen :8 57:12 142:17,22 :18 206:7207:17 happened :4 15:10 16:12,14 :18 25:11 26:1737:8 38:13 40:2045:8 52:16 53:1558:24 62:11,16,1962:25 63:7 86:1489:17 91:5 94:2495:3,6 131:25 136:5136:8 141:20 144:6144:11 148:25156:5 169:17193:24 195:8,8196:12 207:7210:11 happening :24 37:13 42:11 :18 159:15,17187:17 happens :6 32:14 36:21 :14 46:5 91:23213:11,11 happy :5 47:19 70:14 :21 138:23169:22 178:9 188:4 hard :9,10 38:18 189:4 :21 harm :1 Harvard :20 Harvey :16 162:3,7,13,22 :3,9 has :3 7:9 17:2 47:9 :8 72:25 75:384:9 85:10 115:9138:13 166:4,17,18167:2 171:22173:14 174:9175:22,22,22,23184:13 185:16189:20 196:20211:15 hate :16 haven’t :5 144:13 172:13 :14,21 212:9 having :21 22:7,10 30:24 :18 79:3 81:13,13 :24 94:15 98:16102:16 116:9117:25 118:4125:11 143:13167:5,16 198:19202:22 204:14 head :14 28:11 57:17 :11 156:8 190:23 headmaster :24 health :10 hear :13 81:11 108:7 :3 138:16142:12 156:24193:16 212:19 heard :19 8:12 16:2 56:10 :9,22 62:1 74:789:13,14 164:9170:7 171:14 177:1187:20 192:5193:20 203:7212:14 hearing :15 heart :24 22:1,2,3,9 :4,7,9,10 Heather :25 199:12,12,16 :16,19,20200:10 heavily :7 held :24 helicopter201:13,14 hello :23 help :21 12:11,16,25 :4 27:4 37:14,1642:19 73:1,2,296:16 177:18208:14 209:24 helped :14 72:23 73:4 :6 127:3 helpful :1 54:6,8 59:14 :8 121:17 124:13139:5 209:19 211:4 helping :25 Henry :19 102:17 :19 her :8,10,10 25:1 :15 39:3,10,12,1339:13,14 65:2571:15 72:9,10,1373:4,5,5 94:16,1994:21,21,24 95:4,1095:11 96:9,11,13,1696:17,21,24 97:5,697:7,9,11 117:17,25120:14 121:25122:4,8,8,9,25123:1,3,21,22 125:5125:6 126:3,4,4,7129:24 131:15140:9,12 141:8142:19 144:14145:22,24 146:22148:21,23,24163:25 170:21176:7 188:2 199:13199:15,16 209:4 here :4,21 4:23,23 6:7 :13 84:23 87:2498:23 139:5 144:3145:10 146:7165:16 209:23212:5 213:9 hereby :2 here’s :9 135:6 herself :22 122:7 hesitant :14 hey :16 76:12 88:8 :4 he’d :10 44:9 131:15 :7 he’s :1,1 17:14,16 30:8 :9 40:22 43:1049:1 51:19 57:9,1184:22 85:13 99:5116:18,19 119:1137:18 144:8,9210:9 hi :8 148:17 hidden :18 hide :16 hideous :5 high :9 25:22 75:5 :23 130:20,22190:16 Highbridge :8,9 highlighted :14 highlights :7,8 Hill :15himself :1 56:6,25 106:16 :12 168:21177:20 178:13195:4 hire :3 hired :23 55:4 Hispanic :19 historical :3 hit :19 28:10 205:21 :16 hits :17 Hoffenberg :16 Hoffman :24 :15,18 hold :9 holding :22 133:25 145:12 :19 hole :23 158:10 home :23,23 39:21 76:20 :23 141:7 142:8,8 homes :18 hometown :9 honest :14 42:6 43:8 :3 137:21153:14 honestly :7 52:11 137:17 :20 Hong :24 hopefully :4 hoping :19 Horn :9 2:5,6,20 4:25 6:3 :16 40:4,7 109:12 :21,24 194:7,10214:20 horrible :16 horse :6 horses :7 hospital :14 host :6 hosting :7 hotel :2 hour :24 141:3,3,5,6 hours :15 115:25 :12 house :11 12:25 13:1 18:5 :5 19:6,16,20,2120:2,9,10,13 21:3,421:5,9,12 22:2131:12 37:5 39:1442:15 43:11 44:845:4 75:6 76:16,2579:11 81:4 83:1589:23 92:24 94:2597:4 107:18 116:22123:4,7 125:13,18133:13,13 137:3,18139:7,14,16 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99:6 116:13 :9,25 152:5161:13 163:2 imagined :2 imagining :21immediately :6 immunity :12 important :21 4:4,4,6 11:3,4 :13 90:12 99:14126:1 141:12 207:8211:16 212:2,20 Impossible :2 impress :18 improper :13 improve :2,3 improvements :21 improvising :17 inappropriate :5,17,19,23 88:12 :8,17 107:21,22108:9 156:21 157:1 inaudible :8 132:2 inception :8 164:21 include :22 included :24 169:11 188:7 includes :11 173:19 including :16 178:23 190:8 :8 incorrect :23 increase :14 increased :25 48:7 indeed :10 206:17 indicted :12 212:6 indictment :4 indirectly :8,15 indiscernible :15 46:12 69:6 :11 100:20 individual :1 110:25 111:21 :21 individuals :24 75:13 87:24 :9 102:4,14 :20 178:15181:13 202:24 inefficiencies :15 informant :10,10 information :11 138:12 153:3 :14 202:8 207:6207:12 208:15209:25 213:2 infrequent :9 initially :25 injuries :9 insane :11 inside :6 78:12,19 80:22 :4 206:8,11 insistent :10 installed :7 installing :4 instance :20 58:18 60:7 :18instances :21 instructor :20 intelli :14 intelligence :9,12,15,16 126:11 :22,23 189:17189:22 190:7 intelligent :3 intensity :21 interact :3 interacted :12 interacting :24 intercourse :5,7,10 interest :20 53:23 85:10 interested :11 164:21 195:19 :24 215:12 interesting :20 16:11 internal :2,2 206:17 international :18 interpreted :15 interrupted :13 interview :1 2:10 40:8 109:13 :22 214:21,24 interviewed :3 into :16 14:21 20:2 28:9 :21 43:4 85:17,1895:8 99:16 106:1113:15 139:15156:8 168:20171:23 172:3,4,5184:23 188:9189:12 213:20 introduce :21,22 135:9 introduced :14 58:21 90:25 :17 135:8 151:11 invest :4 investigated :16 investigation :5 170:15 186:18 :18,24 205:4 Investigations :24 investment :21 61:5 invite :3 invited :21 133:17 :9 :19 178:7 involve :5 involved :24 29:8 68:17 :7 73:24 163:15173:19 215:8 involvement :12 IRA :13 Iranian :9 22:21,22 Iranians :10 Iraqis :10 irritating :13 island :20 36:4,8 49:1677:11 80:6 110:8,9110:13,18,21 111:3111:9 113:3 140:16156:16 157:5 161:1162:21 182:21198:23 199:2,25200:3 201:7 isn’t :22 153:15 213:10 Israel :18,19,20,21 Israeli :17,22 issue :4 56:16 88:16 :10 99:13,16148:15,15 issues :22 90:12 122:22 Italy :4,6 its :18 94:13,22 :21 164:20 itself :23 142:21 :25 173:4 185:3 it’d :8 185:10 it’ll :11 Ivana :1 I’d :20,23 10:21 11:5 :20,24 16:2 33:16110:23 123:20152:15,16 165:8 I’ll :14 29:3 47:5 56:24 :5,5 59:17 60:1076:18 84:11 85:9110:6 132:24 133:4139:3 153:17 188:7214:18 I’ve :15 6:2 7:18 10:23 :24 16:11 29:157:4 76:12 83:1984:14 91:12 96:14105:4 109:2 118:14123:11,12,13 133:5139:1,2 152:10,10157:25 166:12171:16 175:23189:2 192:5 196:18203:19 214:6 J J :9 jail :2 48:5,5 49:2 50:7 :20 168:22189:10 207:19 James :22 Jane :2 January :19,25 Jason :14 Jean-Luc :18 160:12,20 :13 Jeffrey :9 58:21,21 134:13 :1,6 136:2,12192:24 193:6 Jerry :25 Jes :10,11 jewel :6,8 JFK :18,20 Jimmy :3,13 16:8 17:7 :19 101:3 job35:15 136:22 jobs :3 Joe :25 101:1 John :1 112:7 123:7,9 :15 185:3,10 Johnson :11,12,12,14 66:12 :6 John’s :20 journal :10 journalist :1,2 146:5,8 journey :3 JP :9 Jr 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logistically :5 logs :6 146:2 169:12 :5 London :21 131:6,8 :20 139:8,9,14 :13,25 141:3,7146:2 148:5 London’s :9 long :21 19:2,3 30:17 :19 54:4,5 64:4108:3 123:12129:22 133:23165:17,18,19 175:3178:17 longer :15 38:3 42:20 :25 long-term :22 43:5 look :21 12:13 26:10,13 :15 39:2,6,1244:6 70:15 76:1284:11 95:21 99:3116:17 124:7 143:2145:10 146:12158:6 173:22 looked :1 133:5 158:5 looking :10 11:2 12:9,11,1219:8 39:12 69:1571:13 79:19 100:21111:5,9 116:14134:5 160:8 175:15175:18 looks :17 lost :19 20:4 26:18 :1 lot :22 12:3 16:19 :25 22:5,7,1525:2 29:12 43:1473:21 74:23 84:1484:21 88:22 91:9,1096:5 113:17 137:18140:7 164:11177:19 180:15185:22 190:12194:20 205:3 207:6207:6,23 208:7211:21 213:1,1 lots :4 99:2 Lou :3 love :1 27:5 33:1 :24 158:19177:17 loved :16 29:23 91:15 :23 106:2110:13,18,19195:20 ludicrous :16 186:15 :17 lunch :11 213:7 lying :25 Lynn :23,24 133:7,22 :4M M :2,14 made :16 70:10 110:21 :15 120:14127:12 135:1 170:6174:25 187:13191:16 Madison :7 Madrigal :15 3:2,3 magazine :8 160:6,7 maid :6 maids :18 main :22 maintain :5 38:18 186:10 maintained :12 184:24 186:4 :4 maintaining :16 make :11 28:7 35:1 36:2 :18 59:5,21 63:266:17 67:2 69:22119:4 136:17142:10 143:2 204:2209:21 makes :8 94:8 103:20 :9 171:20185:19 making :20 39:13,14 male :9 males :19man :3,3,5,5,6 94:18,22 :8 141:17 manage :1 47:4 49:2,9 50:4 managed :25 59:16 66:25 :24 management :17 manager :1 30:14 36:4 :24 38:4 42:2190:22 184:22 managing :23 65:25 Manhattan :11 manipulative :20 Mann :25 manners :22 manufactured :1 172:11 many :10 29:1 30:17 :1 76:14 149:8158:4 160:24166:21 204:5 man’s :8,8 March :8 140:12 145:24 :25 mark :10 2:20 43:20,22 :18 192:21193:7 198:2 199:1 marked :20 174:1,1,17 markings :14 marks :22 Markus :13 2:23,24 5:23 6:5 :21 12:7 21:25 :2 28:17 33:1834:11 39:15,23 40:367:20 69:17 71:1771:23 72:2 74:9,1274:14,17 83:1 84:1085:16,21 90:1 93:597:14 98:14,18123:23 124:1 128:4128:9 135:16138:14 141:19,22143:7 144:10,17147:18 148:7151:14 164:23165:15 188:1,8193:25 194:2203:17 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medical :6 115:10,10 medicinal :13 meet :23 7:16,20 8:17 :4,24 11:5,1412:2,5 13:22 33:634:17 54:13 59:364:1 69:7 72:3129:8 133:1 136:21153:18,20 160:20161:4,24 162:6181:14,25 meeting :23,24 11:13 69:11 :3 155:3 196:8 meetings :12 Melissa :15 3:2,3 members :15 129:8 130:19 memorable :8 199:10 200:4,16 memories :15 memory :19,21 29:3,6 :10 53:11 66:17102:20 107:9111:24 124:24125:11,22 127:17148:14 152:20156:13 161:12163:3 187:9 196:8196:13,14,19,22 memory’s :23 men :8 82:19,21 87:12 :15 89:7 112:23112:25 167:5172:22 174:10 mention :10 mentioned :22 99:18 100:3,4 :6 102:9,10104:9,11 121:8157:12 169:7191:25 195:10 Meryl :14 messages :10 metamorphosis :19 172:7 Mexico :3,16,16 30:15 :17 90:14 116:19125:23 140:20162:21 200:1 Miami :8 mid :7 59:5 91:2 108:4 :4 184:22190:25 Middleton :3 199:1 might :8,19 32:10 64:8 :11 102:7 114:2,4114:15 126:24133:9 144:2 166:7176:6,6 185:21197:13 202:5 miles :3 million :21,23 62:13 :16 169:4,10171:2 180:15,15 millions :19 mind :8 93:22 94:8 :15 111:11120:10 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211:23 Morgan :13 71:9 151:19 :9 morning :5 3:8,10 5:23 191:8 :19 morphed :3 172:3,5 morphs :23 Mossad :16,22 190:8 most :21 4:4,18 11:8 :16 117:16 118:1158:3,5 199:10200:3,15,17 mostly :5 110:20 149:18 mother :24 39:1,7 44:2 :4 move :11 moved :19,20,22 20:2 43:4 :17 50:12 moves :10 136:2 moving :12 132:12 Ms :9,14 3:8 5:17,17 :14,20 40:8 65:1466:12 67:6 109:14109:16 122:25136:8 137:23 148:5165:25 194:11 much :15,25 10:1 33:1 :15,22 55:11 61:7104:23 111:16132:19 137:20146:12 153:3163:20 180:17210:7,14 multiple :3 13:7 91:10 :22,23 117:7146:20 183:23 multi-billionaire :6 mum :14 38:21 39:2,6 :11 163:23177:12 mum’s :4 141:1,12 :15 murder :13 206:17 murdered :11 museum :11 must :20 98:19 114:11 :5 196:12 myself :14 7:19 18:16 :16 26:24 37:1738:12 80:15 89:13123:5 208:13,14,17209:22,25 N N :1 naked :12 103:1 180:1,1 name :4,5,11,25 3:2 33:1 :23 58:12,19 67:769:3 71:15 129:24162:14 164:9184:11 192:14196:25 named :15 67:9 182:23 :21 198:2namely :1 names :4,7,9 69:22 70:10 :18 71:19 102:7151:16 174:2,2,5175:23,25 178:15178:23 185:4 186:1190:13 202:4,8,19 Nantucket :14,16 narrative :14 166:9 Nat :10 159:16 Nathan :1 national :2 159:5 nationals :14 nature :9 107:10 141:15 :14 196:3 necessarily :3 60:15 176:11 :22 need :15 11:3 29:24 :13 86:9 119:21129:11 185:21188:9 needed :11,13 117:13 :13,19 185:9,13208:14,14,15 needs :5 nefarious :18,18,19 negative :12 neither :7 nervous :1new :7 9:4,5,5,12,20,22 :15 12:15 15:519:7 22:21 26:1,326:16,16 30:15 31:631:7,9 39:14 51:751:20 52:14,25 53:253:19 55:10 62:773:6 77:6,17 81:1990:14 92:11,13,1692:16 110:22,22,23116:19,20 117:9125:23,24 136:13137:11 140:17,20162:21 170:22,24172:6,25 175:19179:6 199:12,25200:1 news :12,22 131:13 146:7 newspaper :5 newspapers :13 next :21 91:23 124:2 :11,14,15 nice :24 137:9,19 :14,17 163:25177:16 nicest :24 Nigel :14 night :12 140:1 nightclub :1 nine :3 142:2 nobody :10 120:16 nodding :11 noise :10 none :15 120:17 173:1 :14 nonexistent :10 nonsense :24 non-existent :17 non-prosecution :15 170:10 :24 188:20 nor :16 84:24 215:7,11 normal :4 80:15 96:7 nose :20 note :8 179:1 notes :10 70:8 100:22 :10 194:16 nothing :19 29:8,20,25 :11,11 64:8 88:18 :11,20 164:10164:25 165:1 178:3179:17 187:6 203:8 noticed :4 notion :8 86:14 notwithstanding :11 now :14 11:6 14:1 18:3 :17 25:3,5,6,2126:18 28:11 29:238:12 39:24 42:544:2 52:13 53:5,2054:7 55:15 61:274:22,25 83:9 84:1885:8 86:24 90:694:17 95:2,15 96:896:14 97:11 98:699:5 102:7 105:4109:6 111:11,17,20113:2 115:21116:14 119:9123:19 124:25126:7 127:1 132:12132:25 133:15,23138:23 140:23145:16,22,24 149:5164:1 165:22 166:1169:13,24 171:4,16172:23 175:16,25176:9 184:4,7,12,12184:19 190:15194:11 204:14 nowhere :8 NPA :19,23 188:6 nuanced :10 89:10 number :4 numbers :15 185:4 nut :10 O observation :4 observe :13 81:6 84:4 :11 104:14106:17,20 111:25113:3 156:20160:21 161:7,9183:17 202:12 observed :24 99:8,9 105:12 :3 113:22176:18 193:8198:14 203:1 obsessed :12obtains :11 obvious :22 77:4 178:6 :16 obviously :19 22:14 24:25 :11,24 56:1859:11,23 84:1485:11 88:20 103:25121:22 123:11125:1 155:4 158:21165:4 184:15197:24 203:15214:2 occasion :16 51:10 occurred :23,24 118:17 :8 ocean :24 158:1,9,19,22 :24,24 159:3,5 October :25 168:18 off :14 97:24 98:1 :1 113:9,18126:22,23 128:19136:4 165:23 174:7174:10 190:22194:9 offensive :2 offered :19 office :14 23:13,13 74:5 :16 113:19186:11 officer :22 13:15,17 officers :23 offices :7,24,24 176:6Official :14 often :10 88:7 110:17,18 :23 131:7 oh :5 50:25 55:6 57:6 :1 69:2,16 70:1776:5 80:8 88:1799:20,24 101:13106:13 122:14123:7 125:19 132:1139:21,25 140:1141:24 143:25144:16 146:4 153:4154:21 156:1163:23 171:18175:13 179:16197:5 203:12,17 Ohio :5,7,10,17 67:8 :14 72:6 OIG :3 old :21 82:13 142:14 :25 163:25 older :19 once :16 37:4,5 52:20 :4 106:8 151:2168:8,8 182:2,4,14 one :14,18 7:7 8:13 15:1 :12 17:2 18:1419:8,8 20:13,1623:8 24:23,23 26:829:18 36:23,2559:11 62:18 67:1867:20 70:18 72:1472:17 78:20 81:185:12 86:12,22,2587:18 88:23 89:1489:16,20 90:2396:24 104:3 110:24 :25 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INTERVIEW OF: GHISLAINE MAXWELL
DATE: July 25, 2025
APPEARANCES:
For the United States:Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney GeneralDiego Pestana, Acting Associate DeputyAttorney GeneralSpencer Horn, FBI Special AgentMark Beard, Deputy U.S. Marshal For Ghislaine Maxwell: David MarkusLeah SaffianMelissa Madrigal (Pages 217 to 220) (Pages 217 to 220)1 I N T E R V I E W ***
SPENCER HORN: Good morning. It is
Friday, July 25th, the time is 9:24 a.m. My name is Spencer R. Horn. I’m the Assistant Special Agent in Charge of FBI New York. And we are here for a recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell.
TODD BLANCHE: Good morning, Ms. Maxwell.
How are you?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Good morning.
TODD BLANCHE: Good. So the proffer
agreement we signed yesterday, I just — there’s a place on it for us to all kind of initial. It’s exactly the same document and you’ll see your signature. If you can just initial right to the left of — right here.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Here?
TODD BLANCHE: Right there.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, it’s okay.
TODD BLANCHE: And then Mr. Markus will —
DAVID MARKUS: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — initial as well. Thank
you. And just to kind of — before we get going, I’ll just say that exactly the same folks that were here when we met yesterday are here today. So there’s no — I’m not going to do formal introductions, because it’s exactly the same group of folks. So we’re continuing, Ms. Maxwell, our discussion of yesterday. And the same — the same kind of rules apply. If you — we’ll take breaks, if you need to talk to Mr. Markus or your lawyers, no — absolutely no problem. Just let me know. I’ll try to ask my questions in a coherent manner, but if there’s anything that I say that’s confusing, definitely interrupt me.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I will. Thank you.
TODD BLANCHE: So I think the easiest
thing to start with is, is there anything that we talked about yesterday that — we’re going to go through some more names. I think that we — that’s one of the places that we — that we interrupted, just because there’s a lot of names. But aside from additional names, is there anything that you wanted to kind of follow up on that we talked about yesterday or anything that you thought maybe you remember more of or not?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some more names did
come to me in the night, and I did have some1 additional memories just for clarity. I believe I said that I couldn’t think of anybody who I may have asked from Mar-a-Lago, but then I realized that I was — the allegation at least is that I met in Mar-a-Lago and so I felt that I needed to address that. And I didn’t want to leave that hanging because that seems weird under the circumstances. And also — but I couldn’t remember anyone and — maybe, you know, it’s a long period of time. So the issue is not that I’m trying to not say, but I just don’t — I don’t remember anybody that I would have. But it’s not impossible that I might have asked someone from there.
TODD BLANCHE: I don’t — I don’t know
exactly what you said yesterday, but I don’t think what you said yesterday is different than what you just said. So, yes. There’s —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I just wanted
to be — I just didn’t want to feel that I had said no to something and that it — and —
TODD BLANCHE: definitely had
has said that she was working at Mar-a-Lago and that you received a treatment of her — from her at some point, and that you recruited her to meet Mr. Epstein.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know, affirmatively,
whether that’s true or false, or do you just not have a memory either way?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I really don’t believe
it’s true. But I know that I did go to spas and if I met someone, I did ask if they’re (indiscernible) — so I don’t — in the realms of possibility, it could have, but I have no memory of it.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I don’t believe
that that it’s how it went down, but I don’t want to —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So I want to talk
about — we talked a little bit yesterday about the financial part of your relationship with Mr. Epstein, kind of being on payroll, for lack of a better word, for many, many years, starting around $25,000 and ending up at around $250,000 per year. There’s — as you know, from your trial, there’s banking information that shows a ton of money being sent to you from Mr. Epstein over the years. And I think totaling something like $30 million, something like this. What’s — what’s the — why was that money sent to you? Like, what DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION (Pages 221 to 224) (Pages 221 to 224)1 was that for?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, first of all, I
don’t — I dispute the characterization that the money was sent to me.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So tell me what — I
am stuck with the witnesses at trial and what was said at trial on that issue. So what — what — what is the — what do you dispute about that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I believe — I
don’t have full recollection. I’m not even sure I ever saw what they accused me of, but my belief is that that money also contained money that was for a helicopter, for instance, that I never owned and I — was never mine. And —
DAVID MARKUS: In other words, money was
sent to you that you then used to purchase things or…
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I’m not even
sure that I purchased it. So the accounts — those accounts would be controlled by his accountants. And —
TODD BLANCHE: Even accounts in your name,
you’re saying, or one of your entities?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I’m not even
sure I knew of all the entities. I’m not — I don’t — it — maybe I did, contemporaneously, but I simply wouldn’t know today. So if there was an entity, let’s say account X, if I really set that up myself or whether they said, we’re doing this and the money’s coming or whatever. But in no substantive way — I can’t think of the right word.
DAVID MARKUS: Did you have control
over —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I had no control, is
what I’m saying.
TODD BLANCHE: So when — when the
government — when there was testimony or the government admitted evidence that showed, for example, $5 million in 2002 coming from Epstein to you, okay, what you’re saying is that that may — that happened, but that the you there, wasn’t money that — he wasn’t giving you money.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m not going to say
that for everything, because maybe there were accounts that money was sent to me. But I can say that I know — like the helicopter, I can definitively say. I’d have to look at all of them to be accurate for you. But to explain how or why I could be receiving monies, and I certainly did. So I’m not1 disputing all of it.
TODD BLANCHE: But when you said — let’s
go back and look. Why would — why did money have to go into your accounts or account that was controlled by others, but in your name to, like, purchase a helicopter?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, that’s a very good
question. I don’t — I’m not sure I know the answer to that. I don’t.
TODD BLANCHE: So let me ask this maybe a
different way that gets to the issue, right? So the accusation by the government, based upon the evidence they collected, is that Epstein paid you millions and millions of dollars over the years. And the reason why he paid you that is because you were performing an extraordinary service for him by recruiting young women, many of whom were underage to — so that he could sexually abuse them. Okay. That’s their — that’s their allegation. Okay. From what you said yesterday and from what I’ve reviewed about you and Mr. Epstein, he paid for a lot in your life.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely.
TODD BLANCHE: Your flights, where you
stayed with him. I mean, he didn’t expect you to reimburse him along the way for food and, you know, so he took care of you for many years.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is true.
TODD BLANCHE: On top of that, he actually
paid you a salary as we talked about $25,000 to $250,000. What else did he give you? Or what purchase — like, was there a time when he gave you a million dollars or $500,000 as a bonus? Or what — what financial benefit did you receive from him, besides what we’ve already talked about. We don’t have to talk about what, you know, so —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I got it. I got it.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So my goal, always,
was to become independent, independently, financially secure and work for myself. I’ve never been one to not work. And in that regard, over the course of my friendship and my working relationship with Epstein, I expressed to him my desire to be independent of him everywhere, just to be freestanding. And the — in — with that in mind, I wanted to have my own businesses or my own money coming in independent and separate from any salary that I received from him. (Pages 225 to 228) (Pages 225 to 228)1 And I needed that for my self-esteem. I’ve never been — I mean, obviously salary and it was a very generous one. Please, I’m not belittling the sum of money, because it’s huge, but I was brought up to work and I was brought up to be my own, you know. The first time — so I would either propose businesses to him or he would actually suggest why didn’t I do something in the first deal that we did, or the first business that we had or I had and that he financed for me. So he gave — he loaned me all the money to enable me to do this and then I reaped the profits, which I don’t remember now, because we varied over the deals that we did, that I would give him 50 percent or 25. It was sort of — it was random.
TODD BLANCHE: So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I can tell you
what it is, so we can compare it.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Go ahead.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it was in Palm
Beach actually, and it was in real estate. And they sold what was the grounds originally of an estate called the Phipps Estate. And then they converted the land that came with that estate into houses. And I did, I think, two or maybe — I can’t remember now, but certainly one and maybe two, possibly three. I don’t think so. I think two, that then were flipped and there was a profit. So that would be an example of that. But I didn’t have the money, so he lent me the funds to do that business transaction and then I reaped the profits.
TODD BLANCHE: And so — but when —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that’s millions of
dollars.
TODD BLANCHE: — when a financial
investigator like, the FBI looks at accounts, they don’t know kind of the conversations you’re having. They just see the money.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
TODD BLANCHE: So in those cases, when
that happened, when he would — when he financed that with you, would he send money to you? So does that explain some of the money? Like, I guess —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe — I think
it does. I think, for instance, there were two Gullwing Mercedes that they did with Mercedes and Aston Martin. You can look it up, I think, if I’m1 right. That had the doors that would come up like this —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There were only a very
limited number that were made. So I knew that we could get those and flip them right within 24 hours, for example. Also my — here’s another example of something that you guys wouldn’t have known about is I became a banker. I got my Series 63, Series 67 banking license and became a broker for like a new (inaudible). And then — because I was day trading. Everything I had I day traded with — through an account. And I think I was lucky more than smart, but I made quite a lot of money doing that. And so —
TODD BLANCHE: When was that? Like what
— approximate time —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Again, that’s in the
’90s again. I don’t — oh, wait. I think — well, you can find it, because it’ll be my banking license, right? That’ll be something that you can look up, probably.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what whatever that
is — and I just don’t remember when that is. I’m sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: So — okay. So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And so for an example,
I was — I was doing really, really, really well. And so he was like, how do you do that? Well, how are you — what are you — why are you investing in, I don’t know, Apple when nobody liked Apple. This is, you know, before Apple or Microsoft. I didn’t know Bill Gates, so this is not related to him. But my family —
DAVID MARKUS: Don’t charge her with
insider trading.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Please — no. I’m not
trying to suggest that. Oh, goodness. Please, no. I had no —
DAVID MARKUS: It was just a joke.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: It was a joke.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. No. All right.
But my — going back to my family, my dad had given me an account when I was 12 and I had always an interest in business and finance, not — not very sophisticated. I’m not suggesting that. (Pages 229 to 232) (Pages 229 to 232)1 And so I like to trade and so I did and I did well. And so then I would tell him what I was doing. Now, whether he did or he didn’t, he told me he matched me in some other accounts that he had. Because he did a lot of — he — my observation, to go back to what he did, I observed him personally and have recollection — personal recollection of him trading this money, lots. Tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars.
TODD BLANCHE: That was — that he was
trading for other people —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — or that was his own
money?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want also to clarify
something for you or clarify or underline. Wexner was, in my opinion, his closest friend in this time period from when I met him in ’91, right, all the way until– well, ’til, I don’t know. Because I wasn’t that friendly with — well, I did travel with Mr. Wexner, but Epstein told me that Wexner didn’t want to be seen too much with me, because of my family problems. You know, whether that was —
TODD BLANCHE: You mean the problems that
your father’s company had with —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — embezzlement or
allegations of —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Yes. That’s
what I’m talking about. And now, actually today — not contemporaneously, but today I don’t believe that that’s even true. I think it was used as a means to not have me travel with him to Ohio or whatever. It was just a way to park me. And I believe that now, because within the discovery there was a lot of — well, not a lot, but there was some indications that he would actively tell other people to lie to me or conceal things from me, and that he never loved me and I wasn’t his type. That’s in the discovery somewhere.
TODD BLANCHE: So — okay. So the
government had evidence that, even as late as 2007, he paid you a lot of money.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What was that? What
was the money?
TODD BLANCHE: Like several — millions of
millions of dollars in 2007. $7.4 million, I think.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: What was that for?1 Was it — was that the helicopter?
TODD BLANCHE: That was — that’s my
question for you.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: I don’t know.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: So in 2007 —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think that was
probably the helicopter. That could have been —
TODD BLANCHE: That was what?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That could have been
the helicopter, the Sikorsky. Those big chunks like that, I don’t — I didn’t — I don’t personally have any memory of receiving a check from him for $7 million. I just — I just don’t. But I would have to — I know I — so the answer to your question, to be precise —
DAVID MARKUS: You would remember if it
went into your pocket —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would remember if it
went — I would — he never paid me to — for services that you just described, $7 million, to — for any nefarious reason.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. I think I understand
what you’ve said about being on the payroll and helping — him helping you with businesses, and giving you a lot of life things along the way. You travel with him, you ate with him. He’s, you know, but there is the — these massive amounts of money, one-time payments that I —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I don’t — you’d
have to trace that, right? So I don’t believe that came into my account or I had any control. I have no memory of that. I have no — no —
TODD BLANCHE: Well, but if there’s
records that show it coming into your account, it sounds like what you’re saying is that not — putting aside your — you have no memory of that money being yours.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Like you didn’t — that
money is not somewhere —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I wouldn’t be
like, oh, yippee, let me go. I got $7 million. I’m going to go buy myself a yacht. No. Or I don’t know, something else or move it to some other — no. I don’t think — I don’t think, if you look — you’ll have to check, obviously you will. I don’t think you’ll find that money moving in any — to any account, either of mine or it shouldn’t show, (Pages 233 to 236) (Pages 233 to 236)1 I don’t believe anyway. As far as I recollect, it wouldn’t show me spending it.
TODD BLANCHE: Right.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that make sense?
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah, that makes
sense. I mean, I think if — I don’t think there’s any dispute by anybody, even your lawyers at trial, that — that that the money went in.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, $7 million in
when, what year?
TODD BLANCHE: Well, there’s several
years; in 2007.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And?
TODD BLANCHE: 2002, there was $5 million
that you were paid in 2002.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, well, I’d have
to — I don’t — I don’t remember. But — okay. So there’s — there would be another large sum, but it wouldn’t have come from him later. But it had nothing to do —
TODD BLANCHE: The biggest one was in
1999. There’s over $18 million. $18.3 million.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know what that
is.
TODD BLANCHE: So what — but you —
you’re — but what you’re saying, it sounds like, and if you don’t know, we’re going to — we can move on. But when we’re talking about $18.3 million in ’99, $5 million in — three years later in 2002, $7.4 million in 2007. That — those — that money adds up to around $30 million. You were not paid that by Mr. Epstein. Meaning, that’s not money you received for your benefit, even if it was put into your accounts.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t believe any of
that was my money. Now, I do — I just — like I said, we did do these things —
TODD BLANCHE: Yes. I understand that.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: – – with the cars.
TODD BLANCHE: I understand that.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And as —
TODD BLANCHE: But —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know if any of
that money, some of it — if it moves, some of that may have come from the car or a house that was sold that I had an interest in with him. That’s possible. But I don’t think this money is mine.
LEAH SAFFIAN: But also, the record should
reflect, too, that there were times Ghislaine’s name was used, for example, Air Ghislaine. Her name was1 in the name of the entity. It had nothing to do with her. And if you pull signatures —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
LEAH SAFFIAN: — there’s no evidence for
that.
TODD BLANCHE: No. My — what I’m trying
to just make sure I — that I understand, is that the idea that you were paid $30 million between ’99 and 2007, in order to — by Mr. Epstein to reward you for recruiting young women. That is in your — you’re saying that is categorically, completely false?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is categorically
false, correct.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So I want to just —
we went through several individuals yesterday and I want to go through just a couple of more names and ask if you — if you know them. And if you do know them, how you know them. Do you know Elon Musk?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
TODD BLANCHE: And how did you meet
Mr. Musk?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him in — I
don’t remember the year, but it’s going to be in 2010, ’11, something like that, I think, if my memory serves. And I was at an event for Sergey Brin, the co-founder of Google. And Sergey had arranged for — it was for his birthday. And we were — or a bunch of us, I don’t even remember how many we were, but not many of us. Maybe — I don’t know. If I say 40, I could be wrong. If it was 30 or 50, I don’t remember. I’m sorry. Went to another friend’s island. Somebody called Mr. Pigozzi in the Caribbean and — not with Epstein, he was not there, to celebrate Sergey’s birthday. And we were there together for, I want to say, three or four days, something like that in my memory. And Mr. Musk was present for that.
TODD BLANCHE: And that was the first time
you met him, as far as you know?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: As far as I remember,
yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you meet — did you
know his brother, Mr. Musk’s brother?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know if I’ve
ever met him. I know that he has a brother and I don’t think I met him.
TODD BLANCHE: Aside from that time in —
(Pages 237 to 240) (Pages 237 to 240)1 around 2010, on the island in the Caribbean for a couple days, did you — have you seen — do you know Mr. Musk beyond that time?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: We met at — I was at
the Oscars and we met at the Oscars.
TODD BLANCHE: What year was that, earlier
or later?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was post that
event, I believe.
TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
Mr. Epstein knew Mr. Musk?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I believe they did.
And the only reason I say that is not from my memory, but because I saw — I think I saw — my memory is that in discovery, they were communicating on email.
TODD BLANCHE: So you have no personal
knowledge of that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no —
TODD BLANCHE: It’s just what you’ve —
what you’ve seen from the press or from discovery?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I believe his
brother as well, actually.
TODD BLANCHE: Excuse me?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Mr. Musk’s brother as
well. But I don’t — my — like I said, my memory is not — it’s not as good as I would like it to be. And I just want to say that.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you — you mentioned, I
think, yesterday in passing — well, not in passing, but as part of another answer, Andrew Cuomo.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you know Mr. Cuomo?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, only because he
was married to Kerry.
TODD BLANCHE: Yes. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I think I knew his
brother as well. What’s — he has a brother, right? He’s on TV. What’s his name?
LEAH SAFFIAN: Chris.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. Christopher.
LEAH SAFFIAN: Christopher Cuomo.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Chris.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Chris.
TODD BLANCHE: You mean the TV — the
former TV anchor or the TV anchor, Chris Cuomo?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So — but I would say
just socially, not — I’m not close friends or anything, but because we — I was friends with Kerry1 and I met him a few times and I certainly met his brother as well a few times.
TODD BLANCHE: And the same questions that
I asked about Mr. Musk, do you know whether Mr. Epstein knew Andrew Cuomo or Chris Cuomo or Ms. Kennedy, your friend?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t think so.
TODD BLANCHE: And so you never — you
don’t recall any of those three individuals, like, flying on Mr. Epstein’s plane —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: — or visiting him in
Palm Beach or at the island?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: I think you mentioned
former Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday. But if not, do you know Mr. Kerry or no?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have met him, but I
don’t know if Mr. Epstein ever met him. I met him only — well, really I can’t even probably characterize that as a meeting, but I was very, very involved in the Ocean at Work, through the — you asked me yesterday about TerraMar. And if I recall right, I met Mr. — the Secretary that way through the Ocean, but he wouldn’t know who I am, I doubt. I don’t think.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether —
well, do you know former Senator Ted Kennedy?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: And does — is that through
your own life or through Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My life.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
Mr. Epstein knew Senator Kennedy?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t believe so.
TODD BLANCHE: And so for the folks we
just talked about, so former Secretary of State John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, did — you don’t know whether Mr. Epstein knew them, so I take that to mean you have no recollection of them flying on his planes–
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh God, no.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh. But Bobby Kennedy
knew him. Bobby, the health —
TODD BLANCHE: Sorry. Say that again
about Bobby Kennedy.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Bobby knew
Mr. Epstein.
TODD BLANCHE: How do you know that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because we went on a
(Pages 241 to 244) (Pages 241 to 244)1 trip together. Was — we went to — dinosaur bone hunting in the Dakotas.
TODD BLANCHE: When was that, you know,
approximately? I’m not looking for an exact date, but when was that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was early — that
was in the early — well, let me back up. I knew Bobby’s wife, Mary, pretty well, actually. And before he met her.
TODD BLANCHE: And just to help us, I know
we’re talking about a wide span of time, but what are you — when are you talking about that you knew Mr. Kennedy’s wife before they were married. So when are talking about the —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — in 19 — all
right. I guess, let’s get my head straight. In —
TODD BLANCHE: Well, would this have been
before you met Mr. Epstein —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — or after? Okay. So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him before I
met.
TODD BLANCHE: So we’re talking about the
1980s.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes. Yes. Thank
you.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. The ’80s.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So we’re talking
about the 1980s. And then —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The — I was the — I
had a very, very longstanding boyfriend and he had — his brother was dating Mary at the time, and we were all very good friends.
TODD BLANCHE: And then Mr. Epstein — did
Mr. Epstein meet Bobby Kennedy through you?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t — I don’t
think so, because Mr. Epstein, surprisingly, everyone says everything happened through me. That’s just not true. I mean, I think yesterday I explained that he had friends from London, and those are very — they were what the people would call “fancy.”
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They were fancy
people. And — but he had the same types of relationships before I met him in America. So when I met him, he was already, you know, Wexner and he had Henry and he had — he was –I don’t know if then he was at the — in the Council of Foreign Relations, but he was friends with Ace and, you know, like he1 was — he was well established.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He didn’t need me.
And he was, you know, his — Eva was, you know, major model. So he had all these modeling connections and friends in that business, long before I met him.
TODD BLANCHE: And so the trip that you
went on with Mr. Epstein and Bobby Kennedy, was that in the ’90s and 2000s when —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was in
the — it would’ve been in the — I want to say ’93, ’94.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So a very long time
ago.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A very, very long time
ago.
TODD BLANCHE: A few years into the —
your relationship — a few years into the time that you knew Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I mean, I don’t
want to hold myself to the dates because I really —
TODD BLANCHE: No, no. I’m not holding
you to dates. I think —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because I really don’t
—
TODD BLANCHE: I’ve said that a lot,
because I appreciate we’re talking about the ’80s and ’90s and even the 2000s.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I just want you to
know, I haven’t had any — I don’t have anything to review, so I haven’t had any ability to — the short of my legal material, obviously, which you can — you know I have, because I came with a box worth, but short of that, I have nothing with which to refresh — or very limited stuff, I should say, I don’t want to say nothing — to refresh my mind.
TODD BLANCHE: I understand that. Do you
have any recollection of Mr. Kennedy — of there being anything inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy and masseuses or young women on the trip you just talked about?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw anything
inappropriate with Mr. Kennedy.
TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether he
ever got a massage from one of the masseuses? Do you know either way?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not.
TODD BLANCHE: But not something you
remember?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, absolutely
(Pages 245 to 248) (Pages 245 to 248)1 not. I mean, he — well, I mean, yesterday, if I didn’t make it clear, I will reiterate it. I never, ever saw any man doing something inappropriate with a woman of any age. I never saw inappropriate habits. Now, I’m not — I’m not going to say hands or — I mean, that to me is not inappropriate. Now, somebody’s inappropriate and mine may be different, but —
TODD BLANCHE: Yep.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — we’re not talking
about anything that’s — resembles the accusations that we’ve discussed here. So that would be an — a flat no to any man.
TODD BLANCHE: Did your or Mr. Epstein’s
relationship with Mr. — with Bobby Kennedy continue into the 2000s, as far as you know?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Um —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, mine, yes. I
don’t —
TODD BLANCHE: Your’s — with you. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: With me, for sure.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
Mr. Epstein and Mr. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, continued to have relationships into the 2000s?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no personal
knowledge of that. I mean, I would — because —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, no personal knowledge
is fine.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Another thing is that
everyone puts us together like a monolith.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He literally had a
separate life from me. I literally had a separate life from him. Now, did they say? Well, of course they did. I’m not– that’s — I’m not crazy. But he kept a lot to himself and he didn’t like to share. He was not a sharer. Well, at least not with me.
TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Epstein didn’t share,
you’re saying?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not with me, no.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you — do you know
somebody named Cheryl Mills?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
TODD BLANCHE: Used to work in the White
House as a lawyer?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I do. Yes.1 TODD BLANCHE: How do you know Ms. Mills?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Ms. Mills
through President Clinton.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember a —
generally, the timeframe that you — you met her?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do, actually. Hang
on. I’m sorry. I’m just trying to remember — I’m trying to get my dates right.
DAVID MARKUS: Approximately.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, okay. I can’t
get my dates right. But it’s something you probably can — going to be in the early 2000s.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So what I don’t
recall —
TODD BLANCHE: So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say 2002.
I’m going to say 2002, 2003.
TODD BLANCHE: So it was after President
Clinton left office?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yes.
TODD BLANCHE: And so it was in the 2000s.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Definitely.
TODD BLANCHE: And how — what — how did
you meet her? What were the circumstances under which you met Ms. Mills?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I went on a trip with
the President to South America.
TODD BLANCHE: With which president?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, sorry.
President Clinton.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Okay. Just, you
know —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: — just wanted — it was —
I just wanted to make sure it was clear. Okay. So you went on a trip to — to where?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Latin America.
TODD BLANCHE: And who — and so Ms. Mills
was on that trip?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She was.
TODD BLANCHE: And President Clinton was
on that trip?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He was.
TODD BLANCHE: Who else was on that trip?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Doug Band.
TODD BLANCHE: Who worked with President
Clinton?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
(Pages 249 to 252) (Pages 249 to 252)1 TODD BLANCHE: And was Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: And what was the purpose of
that trip?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, the President
had — I don’t know. I mean, I — the President met with — I can’t even remember every — all the, I know, presidents and we were in —
TODD BLANCHE: Was this part of President
Clinton’s work after he left office with the — with his foundation? Or was — meaning what —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t think the
foundation, when did the —
TODD BLANCHE: — was it something for him
or was it —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: When did the — I
don’t remember when the Clinton Global Initiative started. So if you date me — if you give me that date, I can tell you if it was pre or post. Because without that, I can’t pin the reason.
DAVID MARKUS: Do you remember what it was
for or not?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I don’t recall.
DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I don’t —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that’s — don’t over
think or under think the reason for my questions. I don’t — I don’t have any idea why you went on that trip, so I don’t know an answer that I’m getting from you.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I’m just trying to
be as accurate as possible and give you the information that you seek.
TODD BLANCHE: Why would you — do you
remember why you were invited to go? Like were you — were you friends with somebody? What was your role going on that trip?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I didn’t have a role.
TODD BLANCHE: So do you remember why —
do you remember who invited you to go?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If — probably
Doug Band.
TODD BLANCHE: And how did you know Doug?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because Doug and —
again, back with Philip Levine.
TODD BLANCHE: Got it. And do you know
whether he had a relationship with Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Who?
TODD BLANCHE: Doug.1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — I don’t know. I
mean, nothing. He — I don’t believe there was any relationship, other than I helped — well, without me, I don’t think there would’ve been those flights, because I was the one who asked Epstein to provide the plane for — well, certainly I remember the one to Africa, of course, that big trip. And I thought it was an honor and a privilege to be part of something so amazing and to have an opportunity to spend time with a man that I found truly extraordinary. And please, I don’t mean it in any other way, other than as a former fantastic ex-president. I don’t —
TODD BLANCHE: So I was asking around the
question, but I’ll just ask it: like, were you basically asked to go because you were kind of responsible for the plane? Responsible is the wrong word. They use you — they were able to use you to make sure that they could — you helped them get Mr. Epstein’s plane for the trip?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I don’t even know
if when I was on that — in fact, I think — I think, that trip, I’m not even sure that Epstein had met the President.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think this is — but
if I’m right, and I think I am, I think that trip happened when Epstein and Clinton had never even — not that they’d never met, because Epstein had gone to the White House, but they had not met. I’d never asked Epstein for the plane then because they’d never met and it would be weird. But they met because of me and the plane was because of me. But that trip was the first, I think, the first trip I took with the ex-president. And I don’t believe Epstein and he had met. And we’re talking a time period when I was trying to —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — leave. Not very
successfully obviously, but I was branching out on my own and being more independent of Mr. Epstein and trying to — all kinds of businesses that I was into. I was trying to start the first telehealth medicine with the Cleveland Clinic. I mean, I’m not going to bore you, because I don’t think that’s what you guys are interested in, but those were the sorts of things that I was looking for him to finance, so (Pages 253 to 256) (Pages 253 to 256)1 that I could stop being, you know, a general manager of a hotel.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you — so did you take
other trips with some or all of those individuals, kind of without Mr. Epstein in later years? Like, you said that was the first time that you had kind of been on something like that and it was an honor and you were spending time with former President Clinton and others. Were there other — over the years, did you do that more than once?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: We’ll talk about those.
Like multiple times, like too many to count or there three or four times. Like how many times?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A lot. A lot. I went
on a lot of trips. Now I don’t recall all of them. Not because I’m trying to be evasive or anything, but I just don’t remember them all. And after a while, you know, in the incredible job that you have, all of you, that when you’re so high pressured and you’re spending so much time with extraordinary people like you do with President Trump, it — it can blur. It just does. And those few things that stand out, because at the end it’s all just extraordinary as cars and sirens and president. It’s like, whoa, okay.
TODD BLANCHE: So, I understand, but
talk — so don’t give me spec- —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
TODD BLANCHE: — I understand you can’t
give specific numbers. What — describe more about kind of your, that part of your life and your relationship. I’m using “relationship.” You don’t like relationships.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right, right.
TODD BLANCHE: And your — sorry. And
your —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My employer.
TODD BLANCHE: Yes. Just describe your —
what you were doing with those individuals. So when I say “those individuals,” I’m talking about former President Clinton, Doug, other folks that worked with him.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All of them. Yes.
There were loads of them. And just all of them, you know the team, I don’t need to give you all the names. You have them at your fingertips and I can confirm. If you give me names, I’ll say yes, because1 they’re not all going to pop into my head, so.
TODD BLANCHE: Right.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I started
spending a lot of time. I don’t want to characterize that, but I started spending time with the former President and with Doug and his team. And then it — I had no purpose, really, other than I had — I obviously offered something, I don’t know, ideas of — I don’t know. Anyway. And he started to travel. I don’t remember if the first trip was Africa or how it went, but at some point, I think there was actually two trips, but I’m not sure. So there was to Europe and then to Africa, I think maybe it was all one trip. And at some point, Mr. Epstein said he didn’t want to go on the trip and he was going somewhere else and he just left. And I was like, well, okay. And so I ended up doing the whole trip without Mr. Epstein or his plane.
TODD BLANCHE: And when you were traveling
with them, what were the purposes of the trips? Like is this one —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think these were
all — I think actually it was the AIDS, was one of the primary ones, for his AIDS Foundation, when he was working to do that. And there were always a humanitarian side to the trips. And we went to Egypt and to, there was — oh, yeah.
TODD BLANCHE: So there — so it sounds
like you’re describing one — right now, one trip with lots of stops.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It could be, but I
have a feeling that I went on other trips, but I can’t remember.
TODD BLANCHE: When you — when you went
on these —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I went to London.
TODD BLANCHE: Went to London. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know if that’s
the same trip.
TODD BLANCHE: When you went on these
trips, that — were you always on Mr. Epstein’s plane?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: — Or did you sometimes
accompany them on a different plane?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: How many were on
(Pages 257 to 260) (Pages 257 to 260)1 Mr. Epstein’s plane? Again, I’m not holding you to exact, but —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That was a full, that
was packed. Because it was a lot of secret service. It took all the Secret Service as well.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it was whatever the
detail is for Secret Service, it’s a lot.
TODD BLANCHE: And on how many occasions,
besides the trip you just described, were there other times when they used — when President Clinton and the folks he was with, used Mr. Epstein’s plane?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was —
there was twice, maybe. There was that. But it will reflect on the logs. There won’t be anything that’s not on the logs that you have already.
TODD BLANCHE: Were you, by the way,
responsible for the logs in any way? Like, you’ve seen the logs and they’re public and you have them in discovery. But over the years when you were working with or for Mr. Epstein, did you have access to the logs?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was, not. No,
never. The pilots — the logbook was their personal logbook. I never even saw them have it. I never saw them fill it in. And then there was a second set of logs, the — the flight manifests. And I never saw those either. I was never — I was never allowed, I suppose. Because he didn’t want me to see.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know — so do you
know whether Mr. Epstein had a separate relationship with — with President Clinton, different from the what you just described? So different than being with him, with respect to his foundation or something like this?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say no.
TODD BLANCHE: When’s the last time that
you went on a trip or saw President Clinton?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was in — was late
2000 and, I don’t know, ’16, ’17, ’18, something in — it was in Los Angeles.
TODD BLANCHE: And what was the purpose of
that meeting?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he was hosting
something or he was at an event and I was in L.A. and I had dinner with him.
TODD BLANCHE: Had — did you ever meet1 Secretary Clinton, Hillary Clinton?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: When did you meet her?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say —
again, please don’t hold me to it, but I want to say that it was on a flight that came from the island from — not from the island, from the Nantucket or — or Martha’s Vineyard back to New York, is what I think. I might be wrong.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So some — an East
Coast island, like Nantucket —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — Or something like this?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. No, — the
Clint- — the ex-president never came to the island.
TODD BLANCHE: And did you — is that the
only time that you met Hillary Clinton?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I went to the
house in Chappaqua a few times.
TODD BLANCHE: And why did you go to the
house?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was invited.
TODD BLANCHE: Just to see
President Clinton or Hillary Clinton or both or —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah, I mean, as a
friend, not for — I don’t — there was no — I don’t remember any reason, either was somehow I communicated that was in coming, driving back past Chappaqua or if they were home and stop in. And it’s — I know it sounds a little flippant, but it could — it could have even something as —
TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether
Mr. Epstein had — knew or had any sort of visit dealings or — associated with Hillary Clinton?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would say no.
TODD BLANCHE: Did — did you ever see
them together?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Did — do you know whether
Mr. Epstein ever did any business transactions with the Clintons?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I would — well, I’m
not sure I can. I’m not sure how to quite — I don’t know the answer to that strictly, because, I was — I was part of the beginning process of the Clinton Global Initiative. And that was something that I helped with and that was me, and Epstein may have helped me help them. And in that context, he may well have involved (Pages 261 to 264) (Pages 261 to 264)1 himself, but only in the context of something that I was trying to do.
TODD BLANCHE: So when you say “involved
himself,” meaning like, give money to the Clinton Global Initiative or something like this?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, so there’s that.
I think he did do that. And that, I believe, the money that he may have given could have been independent of me. But I think it’s just easier if I just tell you how it happened, rather than — otherwise it sounds all odd and funky. I went to Davos with a former president and I — have you been to Davos?
TODD BLANCHE: In what?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Have you been to
Davos?
TODD BLANCHE: I have not.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Well, you know,
it’s a — you know what it is, right? Okay. So — and I was — I thought the former president should have his own Davos, because it would be — and they had — it turned out, that they had been thinking about it anyway. And so we were talking about it and, you know, it’s a very heavy lift to get something like that to go. And I was friendly with one of the people who had — I don’t know if he was at the beginning of Davos or — but he was running Davos. It was just — I don’t know, hard to describe his actual role at Davos and had conversations with him about what did he think, you know? Oh, just because I was having dinner with him about if Clinton could get something like that to go, what was his thoughts? And he was very, very enthusiastic. I mean, he was like, that’s just an incredible idea. So I put them together.
TODD BLANCHE: Who — what’s that person’s
name? Do you remember?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I knew you were going
to ask me.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can — I can —
TODD BLANCHE: Just — you said — I
didn’t know if you knew his — if you remember his name.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do know. I do, but
I just —
TODD BLANCHE: Can’t remember his name.
Okay.1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It will come to me. It may come to me tomorrow, but eventually these things, like, surface from — like in the middle of the night, I was scribbling names —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — that I couldn’t
remember from yesterday.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But his name will come
to me, and if not, we can find it.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So you — when
the — just still stay — staying on your relationship with — sorry, the — your association with the Clintons. You were part of the ramp up or the startup of the Clinton Global Initiative —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was.
TODD BLANCHE: — and helping them in
supporting that effort.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — I would say very
central to that, yes.
TODD BLANCHE: And Mr. Epstein, was he
part of the work around that or just in support of you?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He supported me to
help them, but then I think he may have tried to use that to insert himself in some way, that would not have surprised me at all. And I know that he was annoying, in terms that I could catch him on the phone and he wouldn’t always agree with what I wanted to do. And I was like, it’s not your idea. I don’t really care what you think, but that didn’t go over so well.
TODD BLANCHE: And —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I just want to
say, it wasn’t my idea for his CGI.
TODD BLANCHE: Wasn’t your — say it
again.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It’s not my idea.
They had had that idea before. I just helped bring key personnel to —
TODD BLANCHE: You’re saying the idea of
President Clinton kind of having his own Davos like —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m not — I’m not
owning. I didn’t — that’s not —
TODD BLANCHE: Understood.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t want anyone —
I don’t try to elevate myself in any form of importance here. (Pages 265 to 268) (Pages 265 to 268)1 TODD BLANCHE: No, I understand.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you go to Davos with
President Clinton more than once or just once?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can’t remember.
Once for sure. And I think maybe twice, but I don’t remember.
TODD BLANCHE: Did — and you’re not, I
think you said, you don’t — you’re not aware of President Clinton ever going to the island?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He never. Absolutely
never went. And I can be sure of that because there’s no way he would’ve gone — I don’t believe there’s any way that he would’ve gone to the island, had I not been there. Because I don’t believe he had an independent friendship, if you will, with Epstein. Did they speak? Did he go? Yes, but that’s very different from going to spend time on an island. And plus, the story as told is so patently absurd that I flew him in the helicopter. I am a helicopter pilot, that is true. But the notion of me flying an ex-president in a machine. That would terrify me. I would never even take that responsibility. Can you imagine? Yeah, no. I’m not — I’m — no.
TODD BLANCHE: Did — did you ever go with
President Clinton to any of Epstein — Mr. Epstein’s properties?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I —
TODD BLANCHE: — so like New Mexico,
Palm Beach, or in New York?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I have no memory of
him in any of those places.
TODD BLANCHE: When you were in London
with President Clinton, did you — did you ever go to your — to your flat with him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t think he did.
I don’t — I don’t think so, because this, like, it’s like — he wouldn’t even — he wouldn’t even be able to carry all his Secret Service with him. I don’t think so, no.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Do you know — we
talked a little about the Duchess of York, about Sarah Ferguson yesterday. Did — when’s the — when the last time you, like — when’s the last time you, you saw her? Like, were you — were you — do you have a — were you with her or hang out with her, socializing with her, in the ’90s, 2000s? Both?1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She’s — well, I had a — I don’t know if she liked me very much. I think my friendship with her ex-husband — well, sometimes she really did like me and sometimes she didn’t. So maybe a frenemy, I don’t know.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — it was always
friendly when we were together, but I think that there was some latent hostility. And I —
TODD BLANCHE: Is that something you’ve
heard since everything came out or along the way you felt that way?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, that’s how I felt.
That — that is a characterization of myself. That’s how I felt about her. I would never — I was always friendly with her. I mean, she’s — I mean, I’ve seen her many, many times and she’s also super, super close with other people I’m very good friends with in England. I think that — I think that she liked Mr. Epstein.
TODD BLANCHE: Why do you think that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: My female intuition.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
LEAH SAFFIAN: Discovery.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh.
LEAH SUFFIAN: The letter.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t remember it.
TODD BLANCHE: It’s okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I don’t — it’s
possible that there’s things — well, I know — it’s not possible. I know that there is discovery, but I don’t recall. But I think she had a thing for him.
TODD BLANCHE: Did — there’s some actors
or some folks from Hollywood that I want to ask you about, just to understand whether you knew them or Mr. Epstein knew them. Chris Tucker?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: How did you know
Mr. Tucker?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think only from that
flight to Africa. But I do think that they met —
TODD BLANCHE: You say that flight to
Africa, the one we were just talking about with —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — President Clinton?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: Sorry, go ahead. Yep.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I also think that
they kept a little bit in touch and I think we met, or I have a memory of him maybe in L.A., I don’t (Pages 269 to 272) (Pages 269 to 272)1 know. I think they sort of loosely stayed in touch. I wouldn’t — I don’t think it — I don’t know. I don’t know how to say that.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know Mr. Tucker
besides that flight?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: And do you know whether —
when you say you think that they kept in touch, you mean you think that Mr. Epstein and Mr. Tucker —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: They may have. I
didn’t, but he might have. I’m not sure.
TODD BLANCHE: Kevin Spacey?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I know him also from
that same flight.
TODD BLANCHE: Aside from that flight, do
you know him from any other thing?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Naomi Campbell?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, I do know Naomi,
and I knew her before I met Mr. Epstein and Mr. — former President Clinton.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
Mr. Epstein separately knew Ms. Campbell?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think she — he
probably met her through me, that I imagine.
TODD BLANCHE: And so for those three,
Mr. Tucker, Mr. Spacey, and Ms. Campbell, did they ever travel to any of Mr. Epstein’s properties; the island or New Mexico?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Not Mr. Tucker —
well, not to my knowledge Mr. Tucker or Mr. Spacey. Naomi Campbell may have.
TODD BLANCHE: To where?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She may have gone —
well, she certainly — well, I believe she visited him in Palm Beach, and I believe she may have gone to the island and she may have gone to see his house in New York. Whether she went to New Mexico or Paris as well, maybe. They were friends or friendly.
TODD BLANCHE: Were you — what you just
said “she may have,” were you on those trips?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t have any
independent memory of that, so I’m not sure. I don’t think so.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Her relationship, her
friendship, her — I think you’re making me use your word. Her — her friendship, whatever, with Mr. Epstein was independent of me.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. But you also had a1 separate friendship with her before you met
Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Larry Summers, the
former Secretary of the Treasury. Do you know that person?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did, yes.
TODD BLANCHE: How?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met Mr. Summers
through Mr. Epstein.
TODD BLANCHE: And the same question, just
generally time period, are you talking about early 2000s, ’90s, a little after that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I honestly really
don’t know.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did want to say
something. I forgot that there was — yesterday. You asked me about Mr. Epstein’s properties. He had a rental in Boston as well, but it — not for very long, but it was another place that I had to put together. And I only went with him once and he would go there independently of me. No, I would not go with him.
TODD BLANCHE: Was that in the ’90s?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was, yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Summers, do you know
why — do you know what his relationship was with Mr. Epstein; business, personal, both, or don’t you know?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think he spoke to
Mr. Epstein about business a lot, but I think they were friends. They were friendly.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
Mr. Summers ever traveled on Mr. Epstein’s planes to any of the properties that Mr. Epstein owned?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He may have, but I
don’t think, if he did, I was on any of the flights. I mean, those are another issues. I mean, I went — I traveled so, so much that I really — the flights just blur.
TODD BLANCHE: I understand.
George Soros?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t think he knew
him. I did, but I don’t think he did. I don’t think.
TODD BLANCHE: How did you know Mr. Soros?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was friends with his
kids.
TODD BLANCHE: What — which kids?
(Pages 273 to 276) (Pages 273 to 276)1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Jon and — I can’t think of his other child. I can’t think of — I mean, I’ve lost his name.
LEAH SAFFIAN: Alexander.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Who?
LEAH SAFFIAN: Alexander.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I met him, but just
socially. He may not remember even having met me. I was excited to meet him.
TODD BLANCHE: When are you thinking —
when would you have met him?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If I met him it — I
think it was either at an event or at his kids — it wouldn’t have been at his house. An event, I think — or I think actually, no, in the Hamptons I met him. He was staying at somebody’s house. If — if my memory serves.
TODD BLANCHE: And what was your
relationship? How did you know his kids?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I was out and about in
New York a lot.
TODD BLANCHE: So just socially?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Just socially, yes.
And — yeah, just socially, I think.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know — do you know
whether Mr. Soros or his kids ever traveled on Mr. Epstein’s planes?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t think so.
TODD BLANCHE: Ever visit either the
island or New Mexico or —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I don’t think so.
TODD BLANCHE: Paris? No?
Okay. So I — we tried to — to identify names that have come up, either publicly or in — in other lawsuits. Are there any names that you — that come to mind that we haven’t, we’ve talked about a lot of names. A lot of names. Are there some folks that you think we’ve forgotten to ask you about?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, you asked me
about names and I have some names, and I just want to give you some context for the names as well.
TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we talked about
Elizabeth Johnson yesterday.
TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She had a boyfriend
and he was Frederic Fekkai, the hairdresser. And he and Epstein were friendly, very friendly.
TODD BLANCHE: And then what time period1 are you talking about?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well —
TODD BLANCHE: Like ’90s, or 2000s, or
both?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think the 2000s,
actually, for that. You can date that because it was from when he — I think he probably knew Frederic before he dated Elizabeth. But —
TODD BLANCHE: And when you say they were
very friendly, did they go — did they travel together?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know if they
traveled together, I mean, Epstein didn’t go out very much or — I mean, he did go out, but not — and sometimes if he did, I think he would go out and maybe see Fred- — Frederic. And then there was — I mean, he had a bunch of guys that he would — I would know that he would see or meet, but he really — I guess now — so he had new friends. I — I don’t know, but —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. What other names?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay, so Henry
Jarecki, who had an island near his. Henry was a financier who was the guy who cornered the silver market back in the day.
TODD BLANCHE: He had an island in the
Caribbean — in the Caribbean near Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. In the British
Virgin Islands.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there was
Branson’s island there. Now I know that there’s an allegation that they met. I — I think — I think I remember that I went to Richard Branson’s island with Mr. Epstein, and maybe he went another time, but I don’t — I wouldn’t characterize Richard Branson and him as friends, but he did go and I think I went with him.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know whether
Mr. Branson ever came to Mr. Epstein’s island?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: If he did, I was not
there.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So — but it’s
possible, so —
TODD BLANCHE: Understood.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — I wanted to …
TODD BLANCHE: Who else?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Marvin Minsky. He had
a group of scientists that he was very, very friendly (Pages 277 to 280) (Pages 277 to 280)1 with, all centered around Harvard. So I remember him. Martin Nowak, who’s a mathematician. Stephen Jay Gould. I don’t know if Stephen Jay Gould was — came through the Harvard angle, but I know that there was a — he would — excuse me, Epstein would have dinners at the house that I was tasked to organize and the scientists were a very major component of that. They weren’t social dinners as much as they were scientific. He would discuss whatever he would discuss. But if you were in the area of brain cognition or — he would invite them to the house and they would come, all of them. All — any name you can name, they would be there.
TODD BLANCHE: So let’s talk about that
top — that relation — those — those associations or relationships he had with the mathematicians or — and with Harvard, and I think with MIT, to some extent as well.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Official
(indiscernible) MIT too, yeah.
TODD BLANCHE: What — from what you
observed, what’s the reason behind him having — developing those ties with Harvard, with MIT, and with certain professors and others associated with those institutions?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He really was
profoundly interested in that area of science and in the brain, and in — I mean, if you were in — Stephen Jay Gould or the major scientist on happiness, I mean, it — it came, I believe, from a genuine area of interest, not from anything …
TODD BLANCHE: And how did he — how did
he become friends with them? How — how was he able to spend time with them? Meaning, did he donate to the university and then they were kind of —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Certain —
TODD BLANCHE: — it was mandatory fun for
them or did he have relations with them where he would, you know —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know the
chicken —
TODD BLANCHE: — host them or —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t if the chicken
or the egg came first.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But — but when I met
him first, I mean, he was already doing a lot of this stuff. This is not — I — I’ve read, so this is why1 I’m saying this. I was not responsible for these — for this area of interest. I mean, I certainly — sorry, just to bounce a second before it slips my mind and I leave something out. There was an institute in New Mexico called — anyone? The institute of — it’s very famous. We’re not talking to the Alamos. Anyway, all right. There’s a very famous institute in New Mexico, so you can look it up. You’ll — it’ll come to you at the minute you put it in your computer.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there had some of
the biggest brains ever. Those — that relationship came through me, so I — that’s me. And that is because my father was — one of the major scientific hit up my family fortune, when I had one, came from scientific publishing. And when it started from the thing that you were asking me yesterday, my father was in the Second World War, I told you, and he won the military cross, and then he actually did become what was part of intelligence back in the war. And his job was to interrogate German scientists and prisoners of war. And then that parleyed into business with Springer-Verlag and then into Pergamon Press, which was the scientific journals business. And he had an interest — he believed that it’s — knowledge is what would prevent war. And the biggest scientific discoveries — well, not all of them, but many of them are coming from the Eastern block and that’s how we have the relationship with Santa Fe Institute. And Murray Gell-Mann, specifically. And I introduced Epstein to Murray Gell-Mann. Sorry, to go off on a tangent.
TODD BLANCHE: This is at the Santa Fe
Institute?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, thank you. And
Murray Gell-Mann was there, and Murray Gell-Mann and Epstein got along very, very well.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he was the man of
the (unintelligible). Sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: So do you know whether —
so while you — when you meet Mr. Epstein in the early ’90s continuing on, so not what he had done before, did he — why do you think, from what you saw or what you heard, he had the relationship or wanted to have the relationships that he had with Harvard (Pages 281 to 284) (Pages 281 to 284)1 and with — and with MIT?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think that that
may have come with Wexner. I’m not sure, but that’s something that I think that Wexner maybe had a relationship with Harvard, and that he used that relationship to, I believe, he funded a lot. And if he didn’t, that his clients of which Wexner obviously was one, would fund. And he would — he would then make — he would arrange the fund or —
TODD BLANCHE: Did —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — organize the fund,
or I don’t know.
TODD BLANCHE: I’m going to take — we’ll
take a break in a — in a minute, but just to kind of set us up for what we’re going to talk about next. Mr. Ep- — we talked yesterday morning about Mr. Epstein’s kind of business and how he had money. Did he seem to live beyond his means, as far as what he was making? So did you ever get the sense while you were with him, that it was suspicious or curious how he was able to have the funds to, you know, buy, you know, two planes, you know, an island, and New Mexico, you know, the ranch, almost — almost unlimited funds?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: You said it perfectly.
I thought it was astonishing, but I didn’t have any reason to believe that it came from anything nefarious. I saw him work. I never saw him really do anything, other than be on the phone, there’s that, and he had a lot of meetings, but he had a lot of accounts. And he dealt with pretty much every financier that you could care to mention. And if I could have access to the names, I’d be able to tell you which ones you — I just don’t remember them all. But in every bank, Goldman, Lehman, all of them, to my mind anyway. And most of the major businessmen at that time, he was in the Council of Foreign Relations, so you had access. That’s an extraordinary list of people. It just is. And then he — you asked me about his, but I — so I thought about it last night, how to try and explain what it was and I think the best thing is to focus only on Wexner’s business. So I was present for some of their meetings in some of their business, and I listened. And so things that I personally recollect, and I know1 I heard, was that he would — when I told you yesterday, I think, that he would, no detail was too small, so he would do the contracts with the staff, I think, and I saw that myself. And he also organized all the trusts for all the children, so if Wexner had kids — and Wexner — I don’t know if he did, he did have children. So every time there was a child, he would create a trust for that child. And I don’t — these were complex financial structures that would contain stocks of the various businesses. He restructured, when I was there, Wexner’s business in its entirety, as I recollect. And then not only that, but there were business interests, so Wexner owned or build, or designed, or I don’t quite know how to characterize it, but New Albany, which is a center outside of Ohio, Columbus, Ohio, specifically. And he built — I remember this conversation, he built himself a very large house, like truly enormous and it’s one of the biggest private homes I’ve ever been to. And he built all the houses around him, and I’m like, this is so random, why would you do that? And he said to me, well, because I want to make sure that the people around me are my friends — I want my friends around me and my neighbors. And I was like, well, whatever. Okay, you know. I’ve been around enormous wealth my whole life, and I’ve like — at some point I just say, okay, whatever. I get it, and I don’t. And so that’s what he did. But Epstein ran New Albany, which included a country club and a golf club and a — I mean, gosh, your boss is one of the all-time great, you know, businessmen in this area. You know what that is. And he certainly does. So there’d be that, and there was a business business that Epstein — well, he told me he owned it, but of course, I can’t say that for sure, because I don’t know, but it’s a sports thing. Riddell, is that a business? Riddell’s? I thought about it last night. It’s red and had hats, helmets. Riddell’s?
LEAH SAFFIAN: Riddell.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Riddell. Yeah,
Riddell’s.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Now, how he owned
that — well, he told me he owned it, but how he (Pages 285 to 288) (Pages 285 to 288)1 owned that, I — but that was before I think I came in and he had it, or he said he did.
TODD BLANCHE: Got it.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he had other
businesses. He had — I know this notion that he did nothing and he just was a grifter and whatnot. Okay. I’m not going to say that’s not true, but it’s not what I saw and it’s not what I believe is true. Not because it couldn’t have been that he didn’t grift or whatever the word is off — off people, but I saw where I thought looked like real work.
TODD BLANCHE: Well, why don’t we take
a — take a break. Okay.
DAVID MARKUS: Yeah. Thank you.
SPENCER HORN: All right. The time is now
10:35 and we’ll take a break. (Off the record at 10:35 a.m.)
SPENCER HORN: We are resuming from break.
The time is 10:49 on Friday, July 25th.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So we’ve
talked around this issue, but — talked about it a little bit. I want to spend the next hour or so or however long it takes. When you — when we — I want to talk, focus kind of exclusively on Epstein and like his criminal conduct with respect to women. Do you — you said yesterday a couple times that, like, you now kind of recognize or think that there was things that he did that you didn’t know about, and that he kept from you or that you didn’t see. What did you see? So you said yesterday, and I’m not — I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but at some point he was getting massages seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day. Women have said that — that were there — that say they were there giving him massages, said that those included some sort of sexual conduct, however, you define that in the broadest sense, not just a traditional massage, regularly. So what do you — what did you see and hear at the time? And then I think, aside from what you saw and heard at the time, now that you’ve been through what you’ve been through and heard people say what they’ve said, and read what they read, what do you — where does that leave you in your mind with what happened?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I saw
Epstein with women. I mean, what I mean by that is1 he would have women around him, or women on the plane, or women in his house, or — that’s how I’m explaining that. Those women were very interested. What — my characterization of the interest — the relationships between all women that I saw with him and him, was characterized by — excuse me, their interest in him as I would see it. And by that, I mean, I never saw anybody who didn’t want to be with him and be with him, maybe socially or whatever. I never saw anybody, not under any form of duress in any type of situation where they were, as I would characterize it, looking uncomfortable or in any way distressed. In the entire time I was with him or traveled with him, I never saw that. So any time I saw anybody with him, they were happy to be with him. He would ask people all the time, whoever you were, to massage his feet. It just was — he’d be sitting there, and he’d have somebody massage his feet, or squeeze his shoulders, or — I saw that a lot. It was an ubiquitous interaction, if you will. So I did see that. I saw physicality, but not anything that was — I don’t know how to characterize it, anything that looked aggressive, I suppose, to define that. So I never saw an aggressive move.
TODD BLANCHE: Well —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw anything
that was —
TODD BLANCHE: Non-consensual.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. Okay. I
never saw anything that was non-consensual. So if he — well, maybe they didn’t — I never saw anything that looked like they didn’t like the hug, or I never saw what I would characterize as anything that was unconsensual.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you see — did you see
him either receiving or participating in sexual conduct during massages? Understanding you never saw something nonconsensual. Did you see him engage in sexual conduct during massages?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, you could define
sexual conduct as in, I did see women who could have been, you know, less than normally clad for massage, but especially on the island where they would be in a bikini or possibly even topless, yeah, I did see that. So you would — (Pages 289 to 292) (Pages 289 to 292)1 TODD BLANCHE: But what about in — so — yes, I agree, that’s one area. Like — so women who were either not clothed or topless with just a bottom on. But beyond that, did you see as part of that him touching them? And again, I’m not talking about consent or not consent or age or — you know, I’m saying like there’s multiple, multiple, you know, dozens and dozens of women who have said that they were — that they engaged in sexual contact. And I agree, there’s a broad range of what that can — how that can be defined, but defining it in the broadest of terms.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So him being physical
with women? I did see that, but nothing that was not consensual. And to address the issue of the large number of women who today say that he was non-consensual coercive with them. I’m not sure. I — in my mind I sort of have to characterize the two distinct areas. There’s one where is the women who are not of age. Therefore, anything with them is immediately unconsensual.
TODD BLANCHE: Correct, yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So let’s start — I
want to define anyone who’s underage versus anybody who’s over age, because I do think that there’s a very significant differential between the two.
TODD BLANCHE: So does the law.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. Okay. So —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t mean that.
TODD BLANCHE: No, no.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m not trying to be
smart.
TODD BLANCHE: I agree with you. Yes, I
agree with you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I want to
deal with the thing, which is really why we’re here. I mean, not that I’m not going to deal with the other, but I just —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — want to make a
distinction with underage situation, because there’s nothing about that that’s right. I never saw anything with anybody who was certainly to be categorical in my — from my trial. Let’s deal with that, because that’s something that I can say in — I never saw that with them at all. And I would say that as — as described, anyway, in my trial did not happen as described.1 I’m not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do those things. I’m not casting those — I’m not going to say — I don’t feel comfortable saying that today, given what I now know to be true. So I am not here to defend him. But what I can say is that I did not participate in that activity. And —
TODD BLANCHE: So let’s divide this into
two areas. Maybe there’s more, but we’ll start with two areas. One is there was testimony and there’s certainly been depositions and public statements, that some of these young women had conversations with you about their age. So, for example, conversations about the fact that they were in high school or conversations about the fact that they wanted to go to college one day, which would necessarily mean — well, not necessarily, but would be more likely to mean that they were in high school when they talked to you about that. And so, were there times — were there women that you knew were underage? And I say that because that’s different than whether they were sexually abused in any way by Mr. Epstein, just merely their age and going to give him a massage?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, I never knew that
and I can categorically state that had any child said to me that they were 14, 15, 16, maybe not 17, because 17 in England, I mean, if someone had said they were 17, I don’t — but I’ve read so much that that did happen. I mean, I just — I had no — I would never have permitted such a thing, I would not — I don’t even know what I would have done.
TODD BLANCHE: So some of the — I think
even someone who testified at trial, but certainly have publicly talked about, was as young as 14 when she was introduced to Mr. Epstein. In — in your mind today, you don’t — you kind of reject that that happened, that you saw that, meaning you don’t recall any obviously under 18 woman coming to give him a massage?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, I believe you’re
talking about Jane, and I’m —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — very happy to
address that. I actually don’t think that the testimony is correct. I don’t believe —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, look, I don’t —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. No, no, I’m
(Pages 293 to 296) (Pages 293 to 296)1 not — I just wanted to tell you how —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah, I don’t want to
get into —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no, no, I’m not —
TODD BLANCHE: — he said, she said.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — no, no. Absolutely
not. I’m not — I don’t want to go there either.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m not going to do
that. But I believe that what took place, with a lot of these people, is that there was a slide, right? So there was a zone and I — he did meet her and I did meet her, and I knew that she was a young child and I knew that she was not an adult, because — but I don’t believe he met her ’til she was 16. So I’m not — I’m not doing a he said, she said, I’m not doing that, because nobody will. That’s not what we’re here for.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But he didn’t meet her
’til she was 16, and the entire testimony of the 14, 15, and 16-year-old is, therefore, not accurate. Did I meet her when she was 16 with her mother? I absolutely did. And did I know that she was young? I absolutely did. But everything that took place that was alleged at trial at the 14, and 15, and 16, is not accurate. And — I don’t —
TODD BLANCHE: There’s testimony or
there’s — and again, I’m using testimony in the broadest sense. Some of this is just public statements or something that’s come out in civil lawsuits about you and Mr. Epstein giving, like an 18 — you’re turning 18 birthday card to somebody, which again, if true would, by definition mean you knew that she was under 18. Do you recall doing that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not. I mean, no
memory of that at all. And I believe that would be the person that called herself Kate has now announced herself in her own podcast for who she really is. Her name is . So I did not meet until actually, she was either 20 or 21. So it would be very hard for me to have given her an 18 birthday card. And the testimony — there’s also —
TODD BLANCHE: Do you accept —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — that slid back.
TODD BLANCHE: — do you accept that at
some point, and we talked about this yesterday about1 how Mr. Epstein changed, but at some point, Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I accept.
TODD BLANCHE: And I think you said
yesterday, but say it again since we’re talking about it. Is that something that you, in your mind, one of the areas where he changed from when you first met him until later?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I — when — I just
also want it to be clear, I never understood that change to encompass children. I did see from when I met him, he was involved or — involved or friends with or whatever, however you want to characterize it, with women who were in their 20s. And then the slide to, you know, 18 or younger looking women. But I never considered that this would encompass criminal behavior. It never …
TODD BLANCHE: And so when you read, I
guess, two different times, right? One was during the Florida investigation, when —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — there were eventually
public statements from some of these now women who testified about what they did with Mr. Epstein when they were under 18. At that point, did you realize or did you think to yourself, this happened or this could have happened, I missed it, or were you at that point still in the mindset that they were either not telling the truth or were not remembering what happened the way that — accurately?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s a very fair
question. So I think that my view of this at that time, to call it as contemporaneously as it did, because I don’t think that stuff came out in public, right? I mean, I may have read things, but I don’t — my first real —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that’s fair.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — memory of that is
at the trial. But my viewpoint, if you will, was set from the minute that lied in her civil deposition. And I could never recover from that, because —
TODD BLANCHE: What are you — what are
you — which lie, what are you referring to?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Her entire
characterization —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — of — no, I don’t
remember how she came and whether I did, — DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDACTION (Pages 297 to 300) (Pages 297 to 300)1 TODD BLANCHE: I see.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — but I’m talking
about the first time she came to Epstein’s house, which I knew —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — to be false. So
from that first lie of that description, I could never recover from that.
TODD BLANCHE: I understand. Okay. So —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that tainted —
sorry. Just so that we clear it, tainted, then, the testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post that, because I had my own personal experience, which I knew to be false.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And the reason why I
think — and I said to Mr. Markus that — this morning that we were going to talk about this, because when I think about you and the public’s perception of Mr. Epstein, the public is left with the view that nobody in the world knows what really happened except for you, okay? And now you’ve explained, the last day and a half, how some of that’s just a misperception, because you weren’t — you didn’t have a key to his house, you weren’t around as much as maybe everybody claims you were, okay? But there still is this perception out there that, oh my gosh, if — if we could talk to Ms. Maxwell, we would know how horrible Mr. Epstein was or how misperceived he was. Whatever the truth is about Mr. Epstein. And the challenge in my mind, just to be — I told you I would tell you when I had issues — and the challenge in my mind is that so many women have — have said that Mr. Epstein sexually assaulted them, whether juveniles or adults, that I don’t find it — you know, at some — that’s persuasive, right, that that happened.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So —
TODD BLANCHE: And so if that’s persuasive
then — and I think it’s without — beyond contestation that he preferred younger women —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I —
TODD BLANCHE: — and it’s also beyond,
I think at this point, there were certainly circumstances that underage women — well, I don’t want to say that you agree with me on that. I certainly believe that there were younger age women that were abused by him, okay? And so — and then so the layer that I want you to –1 that I really want to have a frank discussion about, is some of these women have said, oh, yes, you know, Ms. Maxwell was there, you know, to varying degrees. She saw me there, she — the door was open when I was there. And then much more egregious, right? That you participated and that you were part of it. And so what I really want you to have an opportunity to say to us, is where on the spectrum the truth is. Whether it’s somewhere in the middle, whether it’s one extreme or another extreme, understanding. In my mind, I’m talking about 1994 or ‘5, to whenever, late ’90s or early 2000s.
DAVID MARKUS: And let me just interrupt.
All I would say is, we’re not here to say anything one way or the other about Epstein. I agree with you that the evidence is overwhelming against him, and he — he is his own person and has to deal with that. But Ghislaine can speak about what she knows —
TODD BLANCHE: Yes.
DAVID MARKUS: — and from her point of
view and what she did. And that’s what you can talk about, Ghislaine.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think it’s
helpful to put this on — the time on the calendar, because I think without that we, we’re lost. So I would say we’ll go from the beginning ’91? No. ‘2? No. ‘3? No. ‘4? No. ‘5? No. ‘6? No. In that time frame, you have the allegations of Jane, who I dispute. I don’t think he met her until she was —
TODD BLANCHE: Let’s not talk about
individuals.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no, no, I’m just
saying.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah. I’m with you.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But there’s only —
but there’s only — so in that time period, I am only aware of her.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m aware of a girl,
, who said, but — and and , those — I don’t know of any others. And if there are other people who are making allegations about, I don’t — I’m not even — I’m not actually aware of them. I may have read them in the — but I don’t know. So I think in the early ’90s period, I DOJ REDACTION DOJ REDAC DOJ REDACTION (Pages 301 to 304) (Pages 301 to 304)1 think I’m fairly confident, and I can say that at least as characterized, it’s just — it’s just false. It’s just — it didn’t happen as said. Now, did it — did it happen — did he — did he involve himself? I knew about Jane, because I saw her come to the house. But I saw her with her mother. I know that her allegations are that there were orgies, for instance. But the people that she suggests were in her orgies, didn’t even work for Epstein until ’98 or ’99. Did he do orgies with those people? I don’t know anybody who was there who said that they did. I certainly didn’t see it. I can’t say that that happened. Did she do it with someone else? I don’t know. The stories really start — the allegations really begin with . And I think that you have to shift his behavior, such as it was bar, there was one in California who made an allegation. There was a woman who said that she — and she’s — I didn’t know about. So I think I would call her the first person. I’d be aware of him using his position to —
TODD BLANCHE: But — and sorry to
interrupt you. But I just want to — I don’t want — I don’t want to have you — I don’t think it’s helpful for us —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: — have you kind of address
each allegation.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: I want you to clear your
mind and just tell the truth about it. So I’m not saying you’re not telling the truth. I’m saying just putting aside what other people have said, or what their lawyers have said, or what they testified to or, you know, the rumors in the press, push those aside, you were there. And so when you go back to that time period, ’92, ’93, ’99, 2000, 2001, during that time period, what did you see when it comes to young women and massages?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: All right. Sorry.
All right. So I saw him receive massages. He had regular masseuses in the ’90s, people who were standard and who traveled with him, and I saw that. He was living in the Iranian house, and now that I look back, he had — I didn’t stay there, but I would go to manage the house. I would see1 women, models, or people that he would have come to the house. I — I know that I thought that he was with Eva still at that time. That’s what I believed. And then subsequently believed that even though she married him, I actually subsequently believed that the baby that she had was his.
DAVID MARKUS: Can I interrupt for one
second?
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. Of course.
DAVID MARKUS: Can I just ask some basic
top line questions?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
DAVID MARKUS: Were you ever in a massage
room with him and a masseuse?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Who — when was
that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he would come in
sometimes, and he would say, like, give her a massage here, or he would grab my — you know, but not often. I mean, he did come in from time to time.
DAVID MARKUS: Were you ever in a massage
room with him with a masseuse that was naked or giving him any sexual favors?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw that.
DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That I remember.
DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Did you — did you
ever — did any of the masseuses ever discuss with you giving — that they gave sexual favors to Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
DAVID MARKUS: Okay. Did you ever see an
underage girl go into a massage room with Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
DAVID MARKUS: If you had seen that, what
would you have done? Would you have left?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can’t even conceive.
I can’t even conceive of — I can’t imagine what I would have done.
DAVID MARKUS: All right. I’m sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: No. That’s okay.
DAVID MARKUS: Okay.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever observe
Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. I mean, when I’d
seen him on a massage table, I had seen him masturbate. I don’t know if there was a masseuse DOJ REDACTION (Pages 305 to 308) (Pages 305 to 308)1 present, but I’ve seen him on a massage —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry, I just —
TODD BLANCHE: Did you ever see him
masturbate with a masseuse — you know, with a naked woman, either giving him a massage or reporting to give him a massage?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t remember
seeing that.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you give him massages
by the way? I mean, there’s a photo of you rubbing his feet, and I think, but —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never — I certainly
have been in the massage room with him, and I have certainly rubbed his feet when he was — we’re talking, but I was not a masseuse and I didn’t perform massage on him.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you — along — during
the — over the years, did you pay the masseuses?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was typically not
my job, but if there was nobody else, normally — so in Palm Beach, the houseman would give the money. And in New York, he would do that, because I wouldn’t be in New York when he — I mean, I don’t remember ever paying a masseuse in New York.
TODD BLANCHE: So it wasn’t —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But maybe —
TODD BLANCHE: — your — it wasn’t your
job —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: — on a regular math —
basis to pay the masseuse. So if there was a masseuse seven days a week, it wasn’t expected that seven days a week you would be the one handing them money?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — mostly I would
not. I’m not saying I never did it, because that wouldn’t be true. But it was not my job to pay them. I mostly recall he would either pay them himself, he would have money or the houseman, and I think some of them would have probably received checks.
TODD BLANCHE: And so just picking up on
what Mr. Markus was just asking you, did you participate in sexual activity with him with a masseuse, like at the same time?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: And so the testi- — I
don’t know if there’s testimony, but the women who have said that that happened, categorically, that’s not true?1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That is categorically not true.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you — moving past
the — and moving into the 2000s —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, I just want to
say that I have been — I mean, I remember there’d be times when he’d be getting a massage and I would be in the room, I could be on his feet, and somebody else could be on his feet, and we could be talking. So there is that.
TODD BLANCHE: But that’s not — you’re —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
TODD BLANCHE: — not talking about
something that’s sexual, you’re talking about literally just rubbing his feet?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But I mean —
TODD BLANCHE: But that’s not what I’m
talking about, I’m saying —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Well, they
could be — the — sometimes the women might be topless who were giving that. So you could say that was sexual in that context.
TODD BLANCHE: No, I’m talking about the
repeated reports of certain sex acts happening with you present and even participating?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you — did — in the
2000s time period, so moving a little more recently when you talked about it yesterday, about how your relationship with Mr. Epstein changed and was changing and you ultimately met somebody else. Did you observe any, you know, massages or young women giving him massages later on? So after 2000, 2001 time period?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m sure I did.
TODD BLANCHE: And was there anything
different about what you observed during that period and the ’90s, as far as the frequency, his conduct towards them?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think the frequency
increased. I think he went from one to two in that time period. And — but I did not see — I have no recollection of ever seeing a child entering the house and giving him a massage. I — at that time, he had moved me out of the main house. I had moved into an office with John Alessi, the former butler, under the stairs. So I had an office where I would be that was not part of (Pages 309 to 312) (Pages 309 to 312)1 that — part of the house. If I saw people, and I’m not saying I didn’t see people come to give him a massage, that wouldn’t be true either. But if I saw someone, let’s say, I wouldn’t — I don’t remember ever seeing anybody that I would characterize as a child, no. Specifically someone who accused me of seeing her at the time when she came. If I did see her, and I don’t believe I did see her or meet her at all, but if she did, she was as her — she’s described herself now, was very mature and looked in her 20s. So could somebody have come that was more mature looking than the allegation of what she did look like, with a photograph that was produced as evidence? Yes. But I never recall at any time seeing what I would characterize as a child coming to give him a massage and going upstairs. Did I see people come? I absolutely did. Did I — I just didn’t see children. I didn’t see anybody I would think of as a child. And if I had seen a child, I wouldn’t — I’m not sure what I would have done.
TODD BLANCHE: Well, did you — just
talking, like coming out a little bit of just bigger picture, do you — at the time that you were in his life, did — do you — was he a — did he seem to you to be a sexual deviant or, I don’t know what the right way to describe it. But when you say to me, he was getting massages every single day, right? So young women were everywhere. Multiple massages on some days. Flew with the women to the island, to New York, Paris. There’s always women, they’re always rubbing him, giving him massages. I think it’s — it would be an understatement to say that that’s not normal?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I agree.
TODD BLANCHE: We’ve all kind of been part
of the Epstein story over the past several years, but you were there at the time. Okay? What was it like at the time? I mean, was he a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing? Was he protective of how he looked publicly, image wise? Like at the time, what was it like?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think if he had been
creepy, like, as you would define, and you would expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be creepy, I don’t think the women would have been there. I don’t think that they thought of him as1 creepy. And if they did, I never saw them behave like he was being weird. Was it a lot? Yes, it was for sure. I found it overwhelming, and I couldn’t understand why it was interesting, because to me, it’s not interesting. But he, as he defined it, he found it invigorating. He liked being with younger people and not just younger people. I’m just saying because they gave him ideas, and they were up to date on music and —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, but that’s different,
like, a masseuse coming every day.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I’m just telling you
what he was saying to me.
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, to me, I just
found it a drag and difficult and annoying.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But understand I
wasn’t the only person present. So this time in the 2000s, you’re talking about other people, like Sarah Kellen, who was around, who interfaced with him. I didn’t have to — she was really interfacing with Epstein at this point in time in his life. She was running his — she was his assistant. And so I didn’t have to —
TODD BLANCHE: That’s a fair point. But
move beyond the — his assistants or the folks that work with him. What about his friends and the people that were associated with him? It couldn’t be — it doesn’t — I don’t understand how that — how this is an after fact of Mr. Epstein. So once he’s arrested in Florida, it becomes part of his story. And then later on he’s charged in Southern District, and then here we are now in 2025. But he was a very successful, hardworking guy, and he had a lot of clients, and he flew with them on vacations and went to the island. It doesn’t — I don’t understand how he was able to hide this, what seems to me to be some sort of sexual fixation or issue —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t —
TODD BLANCHE: — from — from others?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t think he did
hide it. I — that’s the answer. And I think that the people around him, I think, myself included —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — obviously,
normalized his behavior on a number of fronts. One, (Pages 313 to 316) (Pages 313 to 316)1 I think it — because it was a self — because so many people saw it of so many — of such a high caliber down that never seemed to think it would — well, if they thought it was strange probably, they never said it at the time. So it became sort of like it was his thing, right? He was always around with women. Now, you don’t — I understand that it’s very unattractive, especially in light of everything that we know today. But at the time, the only way I can sort of try and describe it is through Sex and the City, the movie, the show on telly, where the — this is — that lifestyle is described on the TV show constantly. There are always these women around and men who like it. And a lot of the men that I know like women, and so maybe not as overtly as Epstein, but he was overt, not covert, except obviously in the context of the criminal behavior. So what we’re discussing now, there’s a difference between the criminal behavior and the non-criminal. But you don’t like the lifestyle, I concur. I agree. Especially now. And I — I own my side of that fence that I was there and that I saw his behavior with women and didn’t challenge him or do something. But I don’t — I don’t think back in the ’90s or the 2000s, we’ve had a cultural shift. And the cultural shift, I think is a very important part of the analysis here. Not because I’m trying to justify this, because I’m not, and I’m not trying to, and I absolutely am not here to do the poor me program. So please, don’t misunderstand this. However, in the 19- — 2000s, when this behavior was going down, in the initial blush of the Palm Beach investigation, the women who brought the women who were underage 17, 16, I believe if I’m — my memory serves, were actually targets of the investigation and could have been charged with prostitution and trafficking, I would — if trafficking was even a law. So you’re taking — you’re taking behavior. And I did introduce him to women, I did, but not underage women. I understand that there are allegations. I have read them about myself going to schools. I can categorically tell you that I have never, in my life, gone to a school to pick up a child. Well, not for this purpose. I mean, like my stepchildren, and all, but okay. Sorry, just –1 TODD BLANCHE: No, I understand.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Thank you. I
just want to be clear that I’m not trying to be cute or anything. But — and I did look for masseuses, I — I did. I went to spas and if I met somebody who said she was a masseuse, I did not check their credentials. And of course, if she was attractive, I did introduce her, yes. If I met friends who were interested, he was constantly asking me for — to meet new and interesting people. I did — I did do that. At the time, I viewed it as — well, first of all, part of my job, I think, or part of my responsibility, if you were, to introduce — because it wasn’t just women. If I met somebody who was interesting, like Murray Gell-Mann or who I thought he would like, I did that. So it’s not exclusively, but he did. And I did do that.
TODD BLANCHE: So — but then — so I want
to layer on top of what you just said, what we talked about yesterday more, but a little bit today already, which is everybody that was around him besides you, like his friends.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right.
TODD BLANCHE: So I accept the lifestyle.
I’ve seen the photos, the fact that everybody is — we’re all going to go to the island for a couple of days, or we’re flying on a private plane and there’s beautiful women everywhere. Is there any — I mean, do you, as you sit here today, think that the people around him didn’t also — weren’t also of the same place where they were also getting massages where there was sex going on during them, or things like that? And I’m obviously asking this because that’s what the —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah.
TODD BLANCHE: — that’s what everybody
has said. And when you just described what it was like, the very next step from that is everybody’s going to Vegas for the weekend, you know. And so — and so you — it seems kind of far-fetched to say that, yes, that was his lifestyle. But then when he’s taking groups of folks to the island or groups of folks to New Mexico or whatever, that they’re all, you know, going to church in the morning while he’s getting a massage.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I hear you. I was
there, though. And —
TODD BLANCHE: Yeah.
(Pages 317 to 320) (Pages 317 to 320)1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — and you’re talking about very substantial people. And you are extrapolating because the narrative that started in — by the way, not until 2009, is when it really started. So that narrative that was created and then built upon, and it just mushroomed into what — basically this is like a Salem witch trial. People have gone and lost their minds for this thing. I understand that. But the issue is, how do you satisfy a mob who can’t understand the lifestyle because it’s like P. Diddy in Redux on TV with Clintons and Trump. I mean, it’s — it’s bananas. And while some of it is real, he did do those things. I’m definitely not disputing that. But this was a man, they didn’t even believe he had a real business. I happen to believe he did. Did he grift? I don’t — I don’t know, because I wasn’t really in his business. But this is — this is one man. He’s not some — they’ve made him into this — he’s not that interesting. He’s a disgusting guy who did terrible things to young kids. You’re not going to hear me say what he did to people who are over the age 18. I’m sorry. I’m not going to go there. That’s just not what I’m here to — I mean, I — okay? But to suggest that Larry Summers or Clinton would certainly go, oh my gosh, this is like a guy I’m going to get my body rubbed and have some sex. They’re men that went and had a massage and maybe did something sexual, they’re men, I wasn’t in the room. I cannot tell you if that happened. And if it did, not — I never paid for that. Just so that we’re clear. Nobody ever said to me, oh, you know, we had sexual intercourse and that was a three, uh-uh (negative). I’d be like, okay. TMI, no, not my business. You want to — it’s just not. And I didn’t want to know. Maybe there’s that. But did I, like, think these guys were coming for that? I really don’t. If you met Epstein, there is no way that this cast of characters, of which it’s extraordinary, and some are in your cabinet, who you value as your coworkers, and you know, would be with him if he was a creep or because they wanted sexual favors. A man wants sexual favors, he will find that. They didn’t have to come to Epstein for that. Now did some? Okay. I don’t know. I1 wasn’t there. I didn’t see it.
TODD BLANCHE: So when’s the last time you
think you were with Mr. Epstein when he got a massage?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say 2007.
TODD BLANCHE: 2007?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: And the frequency at that
point, so 2007, is that when it was at its peak, would you say? Meaning the number of interactions he was having daily with women and masseuses?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wasn’t really in his
life. I happened to be in the Caribbean in 2007. I was with Ted.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And we — I was still
speaking with Epstein, because I was still involved in his — you know, loosely with his — the houses and the staff and some of the billing. And he — and I was going back from being with Ted in the Caribbean to New York, and Epstein offered me a ride. And so Ted dropped me off in Saint Thomas, and I was on the island, I believe, for one day and one night only. On that visit, I believe — well, I know he would have gotten a massage, but I have — there were people there, but I did — that were women. And I was —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — just relieved not
to —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — be leaving the next
day.
TODD BLANCHE: Let’s take a break.
SPENCER HORN: Well, we’re going to take a
break. The time is 11:31. (Break at 11:31 a.m. to 11:49 a.m.)
SPENCER HORN: We are resuming the audio
recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell, and the time is 11:49 a.m.
TODD BLANCHE: All right. I wanted to
follow up about former President Clinton’s relationship with Mr. Epstein, not you. Can you — we touched on it, but can you just to set the — I have a couple questions about it, but what’s your understanding of their relationship from what you observed? Meaning former President Clinton and Mr. Epstein.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I saw them talk. I
saw them sit down and have chats about, I don’t know, (Pages 321 to 324) (Pages 321 to 324)1 because I wasn’t either a party or didn’t listen and I know — I would characterize, originally anyway, Mr. Epstein’s interest in him because obviously he’s the former president. But I never saw him — other than that, I saw them be friendly on the plane, but I never — I don’t believe — I don’t recollect, anyway, ever seeing them in any other context. I don’t remember him at his house in New York. Like I said, I don’t believe he ever went to that island. I think that was just a — that was a story that did.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know one way or the
other, whether their relationship continued without you, like, when you kind of moved on past Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t believe so.
TODD BLANCHE: Why do you say that you
don’t believe so?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Because I don’t think
they had a relationship even when I was there. I was — I — President Clinton liked me, and we got along terribly well. But I never saw that warmth or that — that warmth or however you want to characterize it, with Mr. Epstein and cert- — so I didn’t see that. I didn’t see any interest in — I didn’t see President Clinton being interested in Epstein. He was just a rich guy with a plane.
TODD BLANCHE: When — when the Southern
District of New York case kind of became public and there was a search warrant of Mr. Epstein’s house, there was like a — there was some sort of painting or picture with Mr. Clinton in like a blue dress that had been signed. Did you know — do you know where he got that picture or that painting?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The first I saw it was
in the press.
TODD BLANCHE: So you never observed that
in his —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: — brownstone?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I thought it was
hideous.
TODD BLANCHE: What’s that again?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought it was
hideous.
TODD BLANCHE: And — but you had never —
so you don’t know, sitting here today, where Mr. Epstein got it?1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: The circumstances in which
he got it?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know of any other
gifts or paraphernalia or art or pictures that former President Clinton gave to Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I mean, did he
maybe get him a gift? I don’t know. I have no knowledge of that.
TODD BLANCHE: And then going back to the
topic we were talking about before our last break. Well, when you said something yesterday at the very beginning of our conversation that when you first met Mr. Epstein and you ultimately have sex with him, that he had — I’ll use the word erectile dysfunction, but he had issues having sex?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s what he told
me.
TODD BLANCHE: That’s what he told you?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And then over the
years, you said sometime in the ’90s he started taking testosterone?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. But I don’t know
if it was in the ’90s. I don’t remember when he started, but it wasn’t — he had patches — testosterone patches —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — dermal.
TODD BLANCHE: Like on his arm?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And then he was
ridiculous, because you shouldn’t take more than one. But sometimes he had, like — I’m like, what are you doing? It’s like unhealthy.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. From what you
observed or saw or heard, did he continue to have challenges sexually over the years or do you think that whatever he told you — whatever issue he told you he had was fixed?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was a lie.
TODD BLANCHE: You think he was lying
about what?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: About his erectile
dysfunction.
TODD BLANCHE: Oh, you mean you never —
you don’t think he ever had any issues? You think he just told you that? DOJ REDACTION (Pages 325 to 328) (Pages 325 to 328)1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Right. That is what I believe today, yes. But given — if any of the stories are true, even if he had erectile dysfunction, the thing had a priapism, for Christ’s sake.
TODD BLANCHE: Well, that’s — that’s one
of the reasons for my questions. I mean, you’re right. I mean — and again, we’re — we’ve talked about this a fair amount, but what did — like the stories of what masseuses, underage and overage have said about him is, are, you know, and what he liked, what he demanded that they do. Whether it’s watching him masturbate or pinching his nipples, you know, kind of things that are unusual. Do you believe that? Like, do you — from what you saw, from what you observed, from what you did when you were in a relationship with him, is that true?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I — well, the bulk of
what I read, he did not have sex. So that is consistent with what he told me, actually. And his masturbating, that is also consistent with what I knew myself. And I’m going to use a bad word for —
TODD BLANCHE: Please, you can use
whatever words you need. Yes.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Blowjob.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He liked blowjobs.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That I did observe.
And he didn’t seem to have any erectile dysfunction for blowjobs, but sex, he didn’t have. So when I read the stories about all the allegations of sexual rape, I find that challenging, because that was not his modus operandi, from my perspective.
TODD BLANCHE: But when you read about
blowjobs, that — does that — that would be consistent with kind of —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That would be
consistent, as would masturbation, yes.
TODD BLANCHE: Did you talk to masseuses
or women that either he was in a relationship with or who asked you about working with him? Did you tell them, yes, he likes blowjobs, yes, he’ll masturbate in front of you? Like, did you have conversations with any of those — with women about what Mr. Epstein liked or what would make him happy, or things like that?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t have any1 memory of telling anybody about that. I think I may
have joked like saying, oh my God, you know, like from a Sex and the City scene that, you know, he’s — but not — I never instruct — the question you’re asking me, sorry, let’s just be clear. Did I ever instruct anyone how to pleasure, Mr. Epstein, your question? No.
TODD BLANCHE: And you said this earlier,
but I want to just — you kind of said it on your own. I want to ask the question, just so I’ll make sure that there’s no confusion. When — when you over the years —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry, can I just —
TODD BLANCHE: — yeah. Of course. Yeah,
yeah, please.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. Right. I just
want to say, the idea that I would have to explain to a woman how to satisfy Mr. Epstein is patently absurd, because he clearly was able to explain himself. He didn’t need an interlocutor to explain what he liked. He’s been doing this obviously or this — some version of this story his whole life and did not require any help from me.
TODD BLANCHE: Then — so did you ever
observe him having sex with a masseuse? Regular intercourse, not a blowjob, nothing else, where you either walked in or you were in the room?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw him have
sex with any person.
TODD BLANCHE: And so how about oral sex?
Did you ever observe a woman giving him oral sex, whether you were in the room or walked in, or —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw
anyone give Epstein a blowjob. No.
TODD BLANCHE: But you said earlier you
did see him masturbating in front of masseuses.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know if I said
that. I don’t know —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Sorry. I don’t
want —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — if I said that.
TODD BLANCHE: Let me ask you a question.
Sorry.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don’t know for sure
I said that.
TODD BLANCHE: No, that’s fair. That’s
fair.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I said I saw him —
I’m sure I saw him in a — what some people could (Pages 329 to 332) (Pages 329 to 332)1 define as sexual contact. Because if somebody could not have their clothes or topless, I would say maybe, I could say that. If I saw him having — masturbating when someone was there, I don’t recall that, I don’t have a specific memory of it. I’m sorry.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But no, I’m not —
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: — I didn’t say that.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. I understand, that’s
fair. Sorry. I’m not —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s okay.
TODD BLANCHE: — certainly not trying to
put words in your mouth.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no. That’s —
absolutely no. That’s fine.
TODD BLANCHE: So — and you said, I think
in passing — maybe not in passing. I’m sorry. About — about, you know, whether other people who travel with him would get massages or — so that would — when I say that I’m referring mostly to the island or, potentially, New Mexico. But also his Palm Beach residence or even in New York. Do you know of — do you have a list of names in your head or names that come to mind of people that you know did get massages when they were with Mr. Epstein?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, there’s no list.
There’s no list of people getting massages. I don’t have — I can barely recall all the people. I can barely recall. I struggle to recall actual people that I met. And I may have met a long time that I had even forgotten that — about Mr. Kennedy, or I probably brought it up yesterday. It just came to my mind now. So I don’t have, and there’s no list. There was never a list. There was no — or certainly none that I ever saw. None I ever heard of, none that I ever witnessed, none that I — there’s no list. Has never been a list.
TODD BLANCHE: And you never heard
Mr. Epstein talk about such a list?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
TODD BLANCHE: And you never heard
Mr. Epstein suggest that he had some sort of control over somebody because of what he knew about what they had done or had photos of him or anything?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never heard him —
no, I never heard him ask questions about that. I1 never heard him. So I’ve been present many times with masseuses. I never — who presumably could or maybe did massage somebody, I’m not saying whether they did or not just (indiscernible). I never heard him ask any question of any masseuse who may have given a massage to a friend that was on the island, or in Palm Beach or anywhere else for that, any details about that massage. Like, does he have a funky foot? No, I never heard that because it — weird.
TODD BLANCHE: And I think at one of the
breaks today, your lawyer may have showed you something that just came out in the paper, I think this morning or last night. A letter that you — that is attributed to you, associated with this birthday book from 2003 that we talked about yesterday. Is — did you see that letter.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I did see the letter.
TODD BLANCHE: Is that, in fact — look
like your handwriting or something you wrote?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So, I don’t remember
the letter.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But it does look like
my handwriting. And it does look like my name. And it looks like it could be real, but I have no memory of writing that, and I don’t remember it at all.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you remember what the
birthday book, as they’re calling it, what it, like, looked like? Like how it was put together?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
TODD BLANCHE: What do you remember about
it?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I remember it. It was
leather-bound, and I remember it being about yea big. It was big. Right like —
TODD BLANCHE: So you’re saying it looks
like — it’s like over 12 inches, 14, 15 inches?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. It was like sort
of like a folio size, I guess, or something like that. And like this. And it was brown and thick, about this thick.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And —
TODD BLANCHE: So just — so you — so I
understand —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: On heavy stock paper.
TODD BLANCHE: Heavy stock paper, like 14
inches high? (Pages 333 to 336) (Pages 333 to 336)1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That’s about right.
TODD BLANCHE: And then around like —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: A4. A4. We had A4,
because it was done on heavy stock paper, but I can’t remember if it was folio size paper, or it could have just been A4.
TODD BLANCHE: Oh I see. So it could have
just been letter size, or it might have been legal size —
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: — heavy stock paper.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes.
TODD BLANCHE: And the — so the folks
that submitted letters were given the stock paper or how were the letters — or did you, like, glue or something the letters to the stock paper?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Every which way. Some
were given the paper and they did their own thing. Some would send me some scrap of paper and I would put it on the thing. Some I didn’t get because they went straight to Epstein, and I was just told to put them in, like I said.
TODD BLANCHE: And how was it bound?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It went to a
professional binder, who did it like a book that you’d see in the library.
TODD BLANCHE: So like the glue that keeps
a regular book, a novel that you would read together, it was bound that way?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Like a — I believe
so. I don’t think it was stitched, but I don’t remember. I mean, it was professionally done by a professional bookbinder.
TODD BLANCHE: And then after you
presented it, or after it was presented to him when he turned 50, did you see the leather-bound book, did he keep it somewhere in particular?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It was in his bookcase
in 71st Street.
TODD BLANCHE: In Manhattan?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In Manhattan.
TODD BLANCHE: And did you see it over the
years until you stopped going to the brownstone?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I saw it — I know I
did see it, because it was right behind his desk. And after I stopped going, I don’t know what happened to it.
TODD BLANCHE: Do you know — do you
remember being told or knowing where the book is now?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. But I — when I1 received in discovery those pages, I assumed that it
had been found when either New York or the island was searched, and I assumed that the Southern District of New York had it.
TODD BLANCHE: But I think you said
yesterday. But just to go over it again, in case you remember anything differently. You recall seeing some of the letters in discovery.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do.
TODD BLANCHE: But you don’t recall kind
of seeing the leather book, start to finish?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, but remember, I
didn’t see all discovery because they were very clever about, you know, I didn’t receive all discovery, period. And in fact, very important items were not given to me at all, including witness testimony from grand jury.
TODD BLANCHE: So whether — so you don’t
know one way or the other, whether it was part of discovery, you just know that you didn’t get it. It wasn’t part of the discovery that was given to you?
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. But there’s
a — I am absolutely sure that the Southern District of New York hid very important pieces of evidence from me.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay.
GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I assumed that
they leaked it because where else would it be, if that’s what it is. If it’s true.
TODD BLANCHE: Okay. So I’ve — just so I
put — I’ll say it to you as I’ve talked a little bit to your lawyer about it. I said to you yesterday that the purpose of what we did yesterday and today was — was exactly what we did, which is to have a conversation about Mr. Epstein and about you. And I think it’s very challenging to talk about everything we talked about. And, you know, in one and a half days or in just a period of hours. So I’ll talk to Mr. Markus about kind of what we’re going to do next, if anything. There’s no — and I don’t — I’m not being coy or — I just — I don’t know yet. I don’t know. So we — I have a lot of — we have some work to do. We’ll do it with your lawyers to the extent we have questions or follow-up. And this has been very helpful. I think it’s — it was you, you know, who kind of said you wanted to talk, but we gladly accepted it. So I do appreciate you being willing to meet with us. And I expect that we’ll be in touch soon. All right. (Pages 337 to 338) (Pages 337 to 338)1 Yeah.
SPENCER HORN: This concludes the recorded proffer interview of Ms. Maxwell. The time is 12:05 p.m., on Friday, July 25th. (Interview concluded at 12:05 p.m.)
CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION I, Cathy M. Ayotte, do hereby certify that the provided audio recording media was transcribed by me or reduced to typewriting under my supervision, that said transcript is a true transcription of the audio recording; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action involved in these proceedings; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.
READ MORE – DOJ to Begin Transferring All Epstein Files to House Oversight Investigators
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